Topic: which shocks to buy - i wanted the car the more confortable possible

[alapimba]

Hello
I have a fiat 600 D - 1970 and i want to start upgrading the car. i'll put a 903cc engine later but i wanted to start with the suspension.
I'd like to know if change only the shocks will be enough to have the car more confortable and the more similar possible to a "normal" car.
If shocks is enough for that which brands and references i should use? KONI? SPAX? AVO? SELEX? Whats the diferences and whats more recomended?
Should i lower the car? wont this make the car too hard?

Thanks for your advices.

[guy moerenhout]

Koni ,works one side         spax ,works one side       Selex,very hard  but good       AVO ,works two sides (all about regulation possiblility)

[alapimba]

whats the diference between shocks that works two sides or only one?
do you sell this shocks Guy?

[guy moerenhout]

Almost all shocks works on one side "in" for demping .With regulation you make so only one way stronger .With others you adjust in and out .There are compagny that do even two separed regulations for this.I have some AVO price is 75 euro each +vat

[alapimba]

which diference i'll feel changing only the shocks? Let's say with that AVO shocks.
It will make the car more confortable? I don't race, it's just a street car, the diference is anything comparable with modern cars or the diferences is just for fast cornering that that kind of race related stuff?

The price is the same for front and rear?It's used the same model for front and rear?

Thanks for your time

[guy moerenhout]

Iff you do a good regulation it OK .Most off the time you fit hock and after  you forghet to make them stiffer . Front and rear are different (fr  longer)

[zippyfiat]

If you want to try and experiment with stiffer shocks, providing you have the original Fiat shocks, you can take the shocks apart and replace the oil with motorcycle fork oil.  It comes in different viscosities (weights) and you can try different ones, depending on how stiff you want your shocks.  The compression and rebound strokes will both be stiffened up this way.  This is an inexpensive and effective way to upgrade your shocks.  But keep in mind that performance shocks are going to better the better choice.  The nice thing about shocks like Koni is that they are adjustable.

I would definitely lower your car for better performance.  This will make a big difference on a 600.  You can simply reverse the spring leaf in the front leaf with the eyes, so that they are in an inverted position.  Or, you can buy a complete spring with this already done.  I would recommend buying new lower springs for the rear.  You can cut the stock ones, but they will get stiffer.  If you cut them, they need to be re-shaped and re-tempered.  You will need to take them to a spring shop for this.

You can add sway bars.  Fiat 850 ones will fit, but you need to make up some pieces and weld them on for the brackets to mount to.  You can buy Abarth replica ones.  Scuderia Topolino has some excellent info. on his website on sway bars.

Gil

[alapimba]

i have one doubt.
if i put the shocks stiffers the car wont be less confortable than it is at the moment? i wanted the car more stable but i also wanted it more confortable possible...
the sway bars will help in confort or only is good for fast cornering and that stuff?
The car is not that fast, the engine is still 767cc, just have a weber 32 dmtr. but has it's my daily car i wanted it to feel so confortable as possible.

by the way... talking about confort and assuming that shocks that can be adjustable, it's better to be adjustables up and down or one way only will be enough?

Thanks for your replys.

[Pantdino]

By "more stable" do you mean so it doesn't lean as much in turns?

If that's what you mean then sway bars are a good way to go.  Sway bars will keep the car more level in a corner.  If both wheels at one end hit a bump at the same time the sway bar swivels up and you don't feel the bump more. But if only one wheel hits a bump you do feel it more, because the sway bar resists the motion. But I haven't seen many choices of sway bars for sale.

Shocks and springs will both make the car less comfortable if they are too stiff. 

Where do you live?  Are there any other cars near you you could ride in to see if you like its springs and shocks?

I think Gil is probably right, too. The stock 600 car sits too high to be stable. Just changing to lowered springs would probably be the biggest improvement for the money--you may not have to change anything else.  If I had a stock car that would be the first change I would make. Unless you plan to drive with 4 people in the car you don't need it to sit so high.  It looks like you can get front and rear lowering springs for less than 400 Euros:
http://www.scorpioneabarthparts.nl/index2.htm

Maybe call them up and see what they recommend.

Jim

[alapimba]

i know that it should not be compared but i wanted it to be so confortable as a modern car.
With a modern car if you hit a bump you don't feel so much as with the 600.
What makes the diference?

[Pantdino]

the main thing that makes you feel a bump is the spring--it transmits to the car body the energy of the wheel being pushed up.  The main job of the shock  absorber is actually to prevent the wheel and car from bouncing up and down like a rubber ball after it hits a bump. 

With softer springs you will not feel the bump as much, but the car will be less stable and secure.

I had a 1968 MGB that had springs that were too hard and shocks that were too soft. With this car you felt the bumps like a big hammer hitting the car and the car would sort of bounce along the road.  I haven't driven a 600 for many years, but I think that's how it was.

I had a 1978 Alfa Romeo Alfetta GT that had springs that were too soft, so the car had a nice ride.  But I wanted sportier handling, so I adjusted the Koni shocks very hard.  Then I felt the bumps like hammers, so I had to make the Konis softer again.  With the Alfa if you went thru a dip in the road it would sink all the way down on its suspension then rise up, like a boat that had hit a wave.  Making the Konis hard didn't really stop this.

Modern cars tend to have softer springs than cars designed in the 1960's and use sway bars to prevent leaning in turns and stiffer shocks to prevent bouncing.

This may sound funny, but if what you are feeling are too many sharp, small bumps you may want to just get a padded seat cover or have more foam padding put in the seat.  When I had the Alfa I had a racing seat in it that had very hard foam, so I felt every little bump. Once I rode in the passenger seat, which was the stock one with much softer foam, and it felt like I was in a different car.   It was really a MUCH more comfortable ride.  You could just get some soft foam from an upholstery shop and try it -- it will probably help a lot and cost very little.

[Pantdino]

You could also get new springs made, which may not cost that much.
If you find a place that makes car springs you can take the stock springs to them and they can measure how stiff they are.  Then they can make some that are softer, so the ride is better.

A good car spring place will know, based on how much weight is on each end of the car, how stiff the spring should be for a comfortable "street" ride.

Guy, do you know of any places that could make springs for him?

Jim

[guy moerenhout]

the base from a 600 will be nver like a modern car .If he wish to drive softer and dont drive hard ,look for softer tyres and do presure 1,4 fr   1,6 rear .But will be never like a modern car .Iff he fit the old diagonal tyres the car will drive on his best

[alapimba]

can anyone tell me the references for koni shocks to fit on a fiat 600, spax and avo?
On his catalog they don't mention fiat 600 so i don't know which ones are for me.
i wanted to check prices on local store near my town...
thanks

[Paul vander Heyden]

Hello Alapimba,

I certainly am not the best repository on what makes ride quality, but just the fact that it is a Fiat 600 (short wheelbase) will make the vehicle naturally choppy.

Never mind, back to the matter at hand.  All shocks do is control unwanted oscillation of the springs.  Every spring has a natural resonant frequency.  Just drive your car down the road without shocks and drive through a pot hole.  You will boooing-boooing along until the car hits the next bump and a new sequence begins.  As there is no shock to help in damping the "reactive" energy, the chassis will try to absorb the energy.  This is uncomfortable for the occupants and also generally unsafe.  Therefore, shocks do NOT suspend a car, springs do, and shocks help dampen the natural resonancy of the spring.  By this damping action they also keep the tire in contact with the road, enhancing traction and safety.  The British term for a shock absorber, name "damper", is much more illustrative of its function.

If the goal is get the Fiat 600 to ride like a modern Toyota Camry or equivalent, then this is a pretty tall order.  We are talking about suspension systems that are quite different. 

I would suggest that the best alternative would be to get NEW "standard" shocks (either no adjustment or single adjustable) and set them up with just sufficient damping to control spring oscillations.  Then, to make the car more "stable" particularly in cornering I would install a front stabilizer bar from a Fiat 850 Spider.  This will help control chassis roll, and has no effect on normal up-down suspension movement. 

As far as springs go, the leaf in the front is pretty much a "fait accompli" although you could try removing one leaf from the package.  Remember that the way this leaf is mounted it is really two quarter elliptical springs. Remove one of the shorter leafs.   In the rear you could play around with different rear springs, but keeping in mind that "ride quality" is the goal, cutting them shorter is not the answer as this simply siffens them.  If you want more compliance, then you need a spring with the same diameter wire, but with more turns. Remember that a spring is nothing more that a torsion bar would up in a coil.  The longer the bar the softer the spring.  This means having new springs wound, or finding one from another car that fits the bill. 

Hope this helps,

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com