abarth squadra storica forum

abarth cars - community => fiat abarth 750 / 850 and TC => Topic started by: zippyfiat on March 01, 2007, 02:47:01 PM

Title: Headlights
Post by: zippyfiat on March 01, 2007, 02:47:01 PM
Hi all,

in North America, Fiat 600s came with chrome plated headlight rings, while all of the Euro ones (I believe) had aluminum headlight rings and a smaller diameter headlight.  I have the alloy rings, but want to find all of the other parts to mount them.  Does anyone know where I can find them, and exactly what parts I need?

What is the diameter and type of headlight lamp (sealed beam) that was used?

Thanks,
Gil
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: Pantdino on March 02, 2007, 04:35:30 AM
This Czech site has diagrams of several headlight varieties, but there are no measurements so it's hard to know which are the small ones.

http://www.f600club.cz/indexe.htm

I suspect the small lights were NOT sealed beam, which is why they weren't legal in the US.
One of these days my car will get shipped to me and I'll be able to take a photo for you.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: trevor on March 02, 2007, 09:19:58 PM
Hi Gil,      Try ebay sellers     wapsiria      (  Marco of  CA.MA.RICAMBI),    or hegre,    whose range of bits for 600s are very helpful.     I purchased a set of 2, full 600 small headlight support assemblies-except for the  aluminium trims- from wapsiria about 2 months ago.    Trevor
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on March 05, 2007, 03:46:32 AM
Hi all,

in North America, Fiat 600s came with chrome plated headlight rings, while all of the Euro ones (I believe) had aluminum headlight rings and a smaller diameter headlight.  I have the alloy rings, but want to find all of the other parts to mount them.  Does anyone know where I can find them, and exactly what parts I need?

What is the diameter and type of headlight lamp (sealed beam) that was used?

Thanks,
Gil

Gil,
 There were 2-3 styles of the smaller headlight rims available for early Euro cars, though from what I've seen only one style seems to be prevalent on the (eBay) market these days. The headlight lamps were not sealed beam units, they were a seperate removeable small bulb plus the actual glass lamp (lense + reflector). If I recall correctly, these are 5" diameter lamps (actually 5.5" diameter if you count the outer edge/lip of the glass). There were similar 7" type lamps also available for Fiat 600d/850/124/128/etc., just to confuse things. haha.

 The later-model 600d parts books show detailed drawings of the headlights & their individual little parts. Unfortunately, in my 1955 600 Sedan parts book, there are no detailed diagrams like these. Instead, the headlights are shown within a wiring-diagram-type schematic as a complete unit with one part number for the whole headlight bucket/rim/lamp assembly (part #865555) & a seperate number for the small bulb (Nr 8621).

 My 1957 parts book is for a type 100.140 (USA) car & shows the larger 7" headlight rim, so that book is useless in our situation. I think what we need to find is an early (1957-59?) parts book for a type 100.100 (European) Fiat 600 Sedan, which should provide a detailed diagram of the parts needed & how they all fit together.


Cheers,
 -Jeff.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on March 12, 2007, 08:22:41 AM
Gil,

 After looking into the headlights issue a little further, I think you & I may be searching for different items. I'm after the early 600 (1955-56, maybe 1957?) Euro headlights, but I think you might be after the early 600d (1960-6x?) Euro lights (since your car is going to be an early 850tc replica, right?). These were both the smaller 5" type lamp, but used different buckets & outer rims.

 After studying lots of 600/600d/Abarth photos/books/brochures, so far I can see there were 2 different 5" headlight outer rim styles for the early 600 (first alloy, later chrome?), both which used a 2-rim system (an inner rim to hold the headlight lamp itself, then a seperate outer rim for trim/finish purposes). The early 600d cars (still with 5" headlights) had yet another different alloy rim style which appears to use only an outer rim that is made to look wider on the inside (like some that I mistakenly bought earlier - see below). Then of course there's the big 7" headlight adaptation with the big chrome outer rims (the ones with a horizontal screw at the bottom holding the ends of the headlight rim together), which were used on both 600 & 600d models here in the USA & late-model 600d cars worldwide.

  I've found that I have 2 NOS pairs of the early Euro 600d alloy headlight rims, which I bought awhile ago from a European eBay seller who stated they were for a "Series 1" car (it turns out they're for a Series 1 600d, not a Series 1 600 - argh!).

 I just bought a (rather expensive) pair of headlight outer rims from a USA eBay seller who advertised them as for the 600d, but they appear to actually be the Series 1 600 first version (1955-56ish) which I'm looking for. I kinda took a gamble on these after comparing with photos of all 600/600d models, but I'm 90% sure I'm right & the seller is wrong...we'll see when they arrive! ;)

 I also happened across a pair of (what I hope to be) the alloy inner headlight rims for the early 600, like those used on my 1956 Viotti 600. I'm hoping that all I need now is the inner headlight buckets, though these are proving to be quite elusive - mainly because nobody understands exactly what I'm asking for.

I hope your search is proving a little more fruitful than mine??? =)

Cheers,
 -Jeff.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: zippyfiat on March 14, 2007, 03:37:48 PM
Thanks for the info. Jeff!

Yes, I am looking for the ones for circa '60 - '62. I have tried the leads from Trevor, but no luck yet.  Given the many hundreds of thousands of these version of cars that were made, this in turning out to be one of the most difficult parts to find!  Trevor emailed me a diagram of the parts, which I will forward to you.  Maybe they will help.

I hope you find what you are looking for, and if you happen across what I am looking for, please let me know.

Gil
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on July 19, 2007, 11:07:57 AM
 
I just bought a (rather expensive) pair of headlight outer rims from a USA eBay seller who advertised them as for the 600d, but they appear to actually be the Series 1 600 first version (1955-56ish) which I'm looking for. I kinda took a gamble on these after comparing with photos of all 600/600d models, but I'm 90% sure I'm right & the seller is wrong...we'll see when they arrive! ;)

 I also happened across a pair of (what I hope to be) the alloy inner headlight rims for the early 600, like those used on my 1956 Viotti 600. I'm hoping that all I need now is the inner headlight buckets, though these are proving to be quite elusive - mainly because nobody understands exactly what I'm asking for.

Just an "Update" on this subject...

 The outer rims I mentioned above turned out to indeed be for the Series 1 Fiat 600 (1955-56?), the only difference being that they are chromed metal rather than aluminum like the one original that I had, so I'm all set on that part. ;)

 The Series 1 600 alloy inner rims I mentioned turned out to be non-existent - the seller had already sold them but had forgotten about it. Fortunately, a short while later I found a single inner rim on eBay Germany & purchased it along with an original alloy outer rim (for a spare).

 After doggedly-determined yet patient searching, I finally managed to find a second inner rim (again on eBay) & purchased it, along with a correct Carello headlight reflector base (the silver rear half of the headlight lamp).

 The sole remaining parts I need are the pair of Series 1 600 rear headlight buckets that bolt inside the fenders of the car. I've found one NOS unit available on eBay (again!), & am hoping the seller has a second one for me to complete my headlights set & bring my search for these to a happy conclusion. :)

 Gil, I've come across random offerings for the early 600d headlights you're after, but they're usually ridiculously priced (& we already know who we can buy those from - haha!). I will continue to keep an eye out for what you need, though. ;)

 FYI - the pair of Carello outer lenses that you just bought on eBay are for the early 600 lights like mine, which is why you'll likely find they're dated "1954" or "1955" on the glass. I'm not sure if you can use them for your 600d application, but if not, I'd be interested in them if you decide to get rid of them (as they now fit 2 of my cars).


Ciao for now,
 -JS.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: bibito on July 19, 2007, 02:52:09 PM
Hello,
I have the the following buckets sitting in my garage , let me know if you need them.......

Cheers,Lubo
Title: HEY, GIL!!! LOOK HERE!!!
Post by: viotti600 on July 19, 2007, 04:30:54 PM
Hello,
I have the the following buckets sitting in my garage , let me know if you need them.......

Cheers,Lubo

 Thanks for the offer, but they are not the same buckets as what I'm seeking. HOWEVER, I do believe that these are exactly what Gil needs for his car! ;)

Lubo, do you know what year the car was that your headlight buckets were removed from?


For what it's worth, this is the type of headlight bucket that I need for my car:
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: zippyfiat on July 19, 2007, 04:36:25 PM
Hi J.S., thanks for the update and info.!  I am still somewhat unsure of exactly what parts to get for the 600D setup, so I have been sort of attempting to collect early 600 and 600D parts, and trying to piece together something that will work.  If I knew exactly what 600D parts to get, and where to get them,   I would have the set of early alloy rings and glass available for you...  I am kinda thinking at this point, that I would rather have the somewhat incorrect early 600 alloy setup instead of the later (and larger) US chrome ringed setup.  

I just bought one of the headlight bucket things in one of Trevor's parts diagram (thank you Trevor for the info.!!).   I am not sure if it is for the 600 or 600D and if it is for a Carello or Siem headlight (if there is a difference).  I am also not sure if it replaces the US version headlight bucket which is welded in place and part of the bodywork, or if it is an insert.  As I recall, there is no part number for this on Trevor's diagram/list, which leads me to suspect that it is part of the bodywork.  Not a problem for me though, as I need to replace my headlight buckets anyway as they are rusted out.  

Funny, I cannot even buy something on ebay in Europe without J.S. knowing, hehe!  Do you recall then, the complete headlight assemblies I bought for a Fiat 500/600 in the US?  They fit nicely into the alloy headlight rings for the 600D (which I was able to get on ebay after yours sold to a higher bidder).  But, I am not sure that they are the correct headlight assemblies as per Trevor's diagram.  I think the ones in his diagram show the separate lenses, gasket, reflector, etc.?  Are they perhaps a substitute?  Or do I have the wrong parts?

If anyone out there knows of a source of used 600D parts somewhere on our planet (the correct 600D ones), please let me (and Jeff?) know.  There's gotta be a boneyard for 600s somewhere in Europe.  I need to get the spring clips, screws and other bits and pieces to complete the conversion.  And no, I would rather not pay that "other" source reverse discount prices for something that might not even be the correct parts (or even all of them?).

Geez, what a search!!  I expect to find the Holy Grail and an NOS front plastic grille insert for my 1300/124 long before all of the correct headlight parts..... :(  

Bibito - do you know if your buckets are the early 600 ones, or later 600D ones?  The buckets appear to have an opening at the back that the US ones do not have.  If they are the ones I need, I am interested.  If they are the earlier 600 ones, perhaps J.S.

Gil

Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on July 19, 2007, 05:22:13 PM
Funny, I cannot even buy something on ebay in Europe without J.S. knowing, hehe!

Well, DUH. Look at the bidder's list on that auction! LOL. ;)

Gil,
  Lubo's headlight buckets are the ones in the small/early 600d parts drawing that you emailed to me on May 14th. It comprises parts #9910736 (inner backing plate rim), #9907674 (spring), #9908457 (adjuster screw) & the large rear bucket (no part # in the diagram). THESE ARE WHAT YOU'RE AFTER.

 If I understand everything I've found out so far, this large headlight bucket fits into the nacelle inside the front fender. You don't need to cut the nacelle out from inside the fender to mount the bucket, just drill a hole (if there already isn't one?) in the back of the nacelle. The bucket has a bolt that protrudes from the back, & this fastens the bucket securely within the nacelle (within the fender). You can see this mounting bolt on the bucket in the background of Lubo's photo. The headlight lamp (proper) fits into the inner backing plate also shown in his photo.

 The more I study it, I don't think there is an inner trim ring + an outer trim ring used to hold the lamp in place on your style lights...it looks like there are 3 clips around the edge of this bucket (about 120º apart) that do that job, and the outer alloy trim ring just fastens onto the outside of these clips, as well. The extra "width" on the inside of your Euro early-600d outer rims makes it look like there's an inner ring when mounted (it's probably supposed to look like the early 600 2-rim type from the front).

 I don't believe the 500 headlights you bought recently are the correct ones, even though the trim rings fit. They looked very different with those thick/ugly chrome rims - yuck.

 The seperate lense-gasket-reflector shown in the other Carello/Siem headlight parts diagram (for my early Euro 600) is what makes up the normal non-sealed beam type headlamp (they come already glued together as one piece). The light socket & clip are used on both versions (600/600d) and are still available from Wil, if you don't have those.

PS - when I post a photo here, how do I get it to just show a thumbnailed version of the photo with a clickable link below it? I see everyone else doing it this way here, but I've just used the "Insert Image" function & type in the URL, & my BIG photo appears with no clickable link. What am I forgetting or doing wrong?

-Jeff.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on July 19, 2007, 05:38:06 PM

Bibito - do you know if your buckets are the early 600 ones, or later 600D ones?  The buckets appear to have an opening at the back that the US ones do not have.  If they are the ones I need, I am interested.

Oh, forgot to add...the oval-shaped hole in the back/bottom of the bucket is for the wiring to come through.

-JS.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: evannice on July 19, 2007, 05:45:10 PM
Hi JS,

To attach photos:

Click the "Additional Options..." link, then you will see an "Attach:" box with a "Browse" box next to it, click the "Browse" box to find your photo.  Click "(more attachments)" and a aditional "Browse" boxes will appear one by one.

And I was wondering how you got your photos to show up without the little thumbnail and link!

I'm putting a new head bolt in the beast tomorrow so I should be able to fire it up at last!
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on July 19, 2007, 05:56:54 PM

To attach photos: Click the "Additional Options..." link, then you will see an "Attach:" box with a "Browse" box next to it, click the "Browse" box to find your photo.  Click "(more attachments)" and a aditional "Browse" boxes will appear one by one.

Aha! Now I see it...I just fixed my photo above, works great! Thanks, Evan!

And I was wondering how you got your photos to show up without the little thumbnail and link!

I was using the 2nd little box on the left just above the large area where you type in your post. At least now people won't have to scroll down as far...haha.

-JS.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on July 19, 2007, 06:04:01 PM
Gil,
 Here's a copy of the diagram from the parts book that you sent to me...compare it to Lubo's lights & you'll see they're the same. :)
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: bibito on July 20, 2007, 12:27:56 AM
Hi,
the buckets came with a 600D 1964, but not on the car, unfortunately no numbers stamped on the back.
Some additional pictures, hope they can help.
Lubo
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: bibito on July 20, 2007, 12:33:32 AM
BTW, I have a perfect set of those......,if I get the bigger zastava headlights, and they come with the buckets,I can give you the better set since you are after 100% authetisity.
If there are any other specific parts your are after, you just let me know, and  I'll see what I can find for you in Bulgaria.
Cheers,Lubo
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on July 20, 2007, 01:08:27 AM
BTW, I have a perfect set of those......,if I get the bigger zastava headlights, and they come with the buckets,I can give you the better set since you are after 100% authetisity.
If there are any other specific parts your are after, you just let me know, and  I'll see what I can find for you in Bulgaria.
Cheers,Lubo

 Thanks for the additional photos! Comparing them to the page from the parts manual that Gil sent to me earlier for reference, these are definitely the ones that Gil is looking for to put on his car.

The buckets that I am after are the earlier 600 type...they look similar but are slightly different around the outer edge & in the interior mounting tabs.

Gil, this is the chance you've been waiting for. ;)


-JS.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: zippyfiat on July 27, 2007, 04:13:02 PM
Hey J.S!!  I am now a lot closer to getting that headlight setup together.  Thanks J.S. and Lubo!  Now I understand that the special bucket is an inner bucket which fits inside the stock 600 one that is part of the body.  The stud on the rear of the inner bucket is what holds it to the outer bucket.  I think I will need a set of the correct headlamps, and will see if the 500/600 ones I have will work in the meantime.  I am not sure how the 600D alloy ring is held in place.  There is no hole on the ring.  I guess as I gather the parts, it will come together.  I think I also need some minor parts like spring clip, socket, etc.

J.S., are you still interested in my early alloy rings and the glass (not received yet).

Gil
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on July 27, 2007, 11:21:02 PM
Now I understand that the special bucket is an inner bucket which fits inside the stock 600 one that is part of the body.  The stud on the rear of the inner bucket is what holds it to the outer bucket.


Yes, that is correct. And on your type, there's a smaller "sub-bucket" that fits inside the inner bucket (which then fits into the outer bucket on the car already).

 
I think I will need a set of the correct headlamps, and will see if the 500/600 ones I have will work in the meantime.  I am not sure how the 600D alloy ring is held in place.  There is no hole on the ring.  I guess as I gather the parts, it will come together.  I think I also need some minor parts like spring clip, socket, etc.

I think the alloy trim ring is held in place by the 3 tabs on the headlight bucket itself (the smaller sub-bucket part that physically holds the glass lamp). See the photo below for the "tabs" I'm talking about.

Good news - I finally found the proper parts diagram for this type of headlight bucket! It is the exact type that Lubo is offering to you. The small spring-clips are shown at the bottom of the photo below (part #9909068) so at least now we have a part number for you to use! ;)

J.S., are you still interested in my early alloy rings and the glass (not received yet).

I've nailed down the exact trim ring types used on the early 600 lights, and the ones you have don't look like they are for the 600. They look more like the ones used on the early 1950's Fiat 1100 Sedan to me. So no, I'll have to pass on those, thanks.

Fortunately for me, the eBay seller that I just bought the 600 inner rim, reflector dish & rear bucket from also had available a pair of (what I call) the "Series 2 600" outer trim rings, which look similar to the USA 7" rims but about 1/3 the thickness & no screw at the bottom (shallow "eyebrow" type). From what I can tell these were for 1957-59 Euro 600's, & used the same inner rim/bucket/etc. as the earlier type. The seller gave me a very good price which I just could not pass up, so now I have 2 "correct" options on what to use on my car. :) Now the only part I need is just one more bucket...

I'd be interested in the glass after you have everything else you need. ;)


Cheers,
         -JS.
Title: What kind of headlight is this?
Post by: Pantdino on July 29, 2007, 03:15:22 AM
It sounds like you guys have researched the 600 headlight issue thoroughly. 
This is the headlight on the 1000TC replica I just bought. The car is a 1964 600D built for the German market and first sold there in July 1964.   It is a "small headlight" car.
There are no screws or clamps on the bottom of the trim ring.

Inside there are two bulbs, the main one and the small "parking" one, as shown.

I could write the previous owner to see if he changed the lights from what was on the car, but he is on vacation until August 8.

Thanks mucho,

Jim Oddie

Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: zippyfiat on August 10, 2007, 05:02:41 PM
Hi Jim, I have not heard of an extra lamp inside of the early 600 & 600D headlight assemblies before.  I wonder if this was to meet the regulations in the Germany at the time of sale of the car?  You headlight rings almost look like chrome?  Or are they highly polished aluminum?

Gil
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: Pantdino on August 12, 2007, 07:00:06 AM
Hi, Gil,

Yes, they are chrome. 
Thanks for the info-- yes, it makes sense that it would be a Germany-required feature.

Jim

Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: zippyfiat on October 02, 2007, 07:29:53 PM
I now have most of the headlight parts I am looking for to convert to the 600D Euro style headlight assemblies with the Euro alloy rings.  Here are a couple of photos of the parts so far.  Thanks so much Lubo for the bucket assemblies!  The Carello headlights I have were listed for a Fiat 500 and 600 when I bought them on ebay.  I now see that there are different types of them for the 500s too.  I need the lamps for them.  Where would I get them and is it a Euro type H4 that I would use?  I also need the sockets for the lamps.

I cannot figure out how the headlight rings attach to the bucket.  Is there a ring of some sort that holds it in place?  I do not seen any diagrams that show this.  Would anyone have information on this?

Is there a gasket or grommet required where the wires exit the inner bucket?

Thanks,
Gil
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on October 02, 2007, 09:09:12 PM
The Carello headlights I have were listed for a Fiat 500 and 600 when I bought them on ebay.  I now see that there are different types of them for the 500s too.  I need the lamps for them.  Where would I get them and is it a Euro type H4 that I would use?  I also need the sockets for the lamps.

 When you say "lamps", do you mean the large glass headlight unit (lense + reflector), or just the small light bulb? From your photos, it looks like the glass lense/reflector unit you have takes a bakelite/plastic socket unit like the early 600. Wil (eBay) had some of these for sale awhile ago, you might check with him. The socket is Fiat part #9901181 in the diagram below.

 If you're using the lamps you've shown, you'll need 45w/40w bulbs of the "bayonet" style (push-in-and-twist type). The base type of the bulb is most important to know - it's known as "BA20d". (see photo). The bulbs can be elusive to find, I got mine a few years ago at a car show vendor booth from a local Cibie lighting supplier (Aardvark Intl.). My original bulb was Osram brand, I think the replacement was a Phillips? I'll try to find the receipt to get the part #.

-JS.

Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on October 02, 2007, 09:37:47 PM
I cannot figure out how the headlight rings attach to the bucket.  Is there a ring of some sort that holds it in place?  I do not seen any diagrams that show this.  Would anyone have information on this? Is there a gasket or grommet required where the wires exit the inner bucket?

  I think the outer trim rings are held on by small spring-clips that get secured to the edges of the black bucket. I saw these in a few eBay photos from awhile ago. I bought a few of the clips off eBay from Wil awhile back, as supposedly they're also used on the 850 Coupe. I think they're Fiat part #883480? (see pics below)

  As for the grommet/gasket, as far as I know there's only a grommet where the wiring goes through the bottom/rear of the outermost headlight bucket (the part welded to the fender) where the wires exit through to the inside of the wheelwell.

-JS

Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on October 02, 2007, 10:34:51 PM
Just a follow-up...

The headlight rim clips are these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250154868840

The bulb type is:

12V 45/40W BA20d - Osram 7351, Philips 12748, Stanley 7382, Lucas 396. Narva also makes it, but I don't have the number handy. Usually priced at $13-$27 each.

  I might also have some NOS 5" Carello's that use the later P45t 3-spade base bulb (which I have a bunch of), this allows for more modern H1/H4/halogen/etc. bulb types. I'll have to check in storage. ;)

-JS.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: zippyfiat on October 03, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
J.S, that is a wack 'o useful information!!!  Thanks.  When I said lamp, I meant the bulb that goes inside the headlight.  I did "The Google" and came up with some sources for the Osram 7351, so getting some wouldn't seem to be a problem.  The other brands look to be a little harder to source (on Google anyway).  Would the socket for these (Fiat #9901181) we the same as the later headlights you have that use the H4 bulbs?  Man, those early bulbs look huge...

Okay, so I bought the little clips from Wapsira!  I never would have known exactly what they were for without your help.   Thanks for the tip.

I was just looking at the Carello headlights I have, and I see that one has defective/rusty/peeling silvered surface on the inside, so I need to find at least one new one of that type.  I guess it won't hurt to have a spare or two of them around.

Are you certain that the later Carello headlights you have fit?  Some of the ones I have seen for sale on ebay appear to have studs and other differences on the rear of them.

Putting together these headlight assemblies has sure been a project in itself.  I finally see how it all works.  These sure are an awfully complicated assembly.  So many parts compared to modern cars.  Then, the whole thing just bolts into the standard 600 headlight bucket (the one welded to the body).  There wouldn't be a gasket between the headlight sub-assembly and the body would there?

Gil
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on October 05, 2007, 10:37:14 AM
Would the socket for these (Fiat #9901181) be the same as the later headlights you have that use the H4 bulbs?

  I don't think so. The later "P45t" type bulbs normally fit directly to the headlight, and have the wiring connector spades on the back of them. The headlight they fit into will have a slightly different opening on the back, and usually 2 small tabs on each side of the opening that flip over & hold the bulb unit in place (instead of the single wire arch that holds the socket in place like on your headlights).

Man, those early bulbs look huge...

Yeah, they're pretty funky looking.

Okay, so I bought the little clips from Wapsira!  I never would have known exactly what they were for without your help.  Thanks for the tip.

You're welcome. Glad I could share my findings. ;)

I was just looking at the Carello headlights I have, and I see that one has defective/rusty/peeling silvered surface on the inside, so I need to find at least one new one of that type.  I guess it won't hurt to have a spare or two of them around.

 I have a spare good reflector unit that I got recently from eBay along with my headlight bucket & rim. It's just the back half of the light (the silver mirror-like part).

Are you certain that the later Carello headlights you have fit?  Some of the ones I have seen for sale on ebay appear to have studs and other differences on the rear of them.

  I learned about the rear-studs thing early on in my 600 headlight "quest", so I avoided those. I'm going to pull the spares out of storage later today to see exactly what I've got - it's been awhile since I bought them. I need to verify the bulb mount type on the back, as well as the actual size (5" or 7").

There wouldn't be a gasket between the headlight sub-assembly and the body would there?

  Not that I've ever seen on any of the cars I've worked on &/or dismantled, and not in the parts books. Just straight metal to metal, no gasket in between.

-Jeff.

Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on October 06, 2007, 12:07:57 PM
Okay, so I bought the little clips from Wapsira!  I never would have known exactly what they were for without your help.   Thanks for the tip.

  I think I said before that the clips go on the edge of the headlight bucket. But in looking over my headlight assemblies & how the pieces all fit together yesterday, it appears that the clips instead get mounted on the raised seam around the headlight opening on the car (where the fenders & front body panel meet the headlight nacelle sheetmetal). Then the outer trim ring gets snapped onto the clips, remaining separate from the actual headlight assembly itself.

  I was just looking at the Carello headlights I have, and I see that one has defective/rusty/peeling silvered surface on the inside, so I need to find at least one new one of that type.  I guess it won't hurt to have a spare or two of them around.

Gil,
  After rummaging through boxes in storage yesterday, I found that the NOS Carello lights that I thought took the modern bulb type are unfortunately not 5", but 7" instead (for USA type headlights). I'll likely keep them for use in the 850's later.

  I do have an extra pair of NOS 5" Carello's that look identical to yours. These have the more modern fluting pattern in the glass lense, not like that pair of early 600 lenses you have, right? What is the stamped Carello part number on yours? I might be persuaded to part with mine in some sort of trade... ;)

  In looking at the back of your/my 5" Carello's, it doesn't look like you can use the modern P45t type bulb with them. They might physically fit together, but I think the method (retainer) used to hold the bulb in place is different between the two. Our "early" lights use a single arched wire retainer (to hold the socket in place), while the later lights have a small hinge-tab on each side 180º apart (you can see one of the "tabs" on the headlight in the diagram of my July 27th post above).

Here's a great page that shows the 2 different 45w/40w bulb types, early BA20d vs. modern P45t:

http://store.candlepower.com/anspeubu.html

  Sorry to say, but it looks like if you want to upgrade to more modern type bulbs (halogen, tungsten, etc.), you'll have to get the other type of Carello headlight units (with the 2 tabs on back). Wattage should be 45/40w (45w high beams, 40w low beams), voltage is 12V.

Ciao,
 -Jeff.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: zippyfiat on October 06, 2007, 07:42:02 PM
Hi Jeff, I guess I will have to wait until I get my clips to see exactly how it all fits together.  What you say would make more sense, as that way, you can replace a headlight without having to unbolt the complete headlight/bucket assembley from inside the fender.

No problem on the later headlights.  I was thinking anyway, that I don't expect to be doing much night time driving in my car, so having the later quartz bulbs wouldn't be a huge loss as far as lighting level goes.  I will probably get a few spare ba20d style bulbs.  Would "funky" get you a few more points at a car show???  I think putting together these headlight assemblies should be a special award category on its own!!

The Carello number on the front face of my headlight is  00.183.700.  There's also some other numbers on the face - "IGM 0726 P" and "IGM 3751 LA".  On the rear, there's some other numbers - "lente 00.183.700", riflettore 00.183.010" and "portalampade 50.010.751" (the portalampade number is hard to read).  There's one more number on the rear - K11073 (35/35).  Could 35/35 be wattage?

I have seen Selma brand headlights for sale that look the same as the Carello ones.  I wonder if these are completely interchangeable?

BTW, the headlights I have now are one piece.  You think there is a version to fit my style of bucket that has a separate reflector part?

Other 500/600 headlights I have seen on ebay do have the different bulb retainer on the back.  They have two tabs to hold the bulb in place.  Geesh, between the 500 & 600 and the different years/versions, there does seem to be quite a number of different headlights that were used.  It's sure nice to have a source of this arcane/esoteric info. around!  :)

Another thing, I assume that one has to be careful to get headlights for LHD cars if used in North America?  Ie., don't buy them from Britain or down under?

Gil
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on October 06, 2007, 11:15:54 PM
I will probably get a few spare ba20d style bulbs.

If so, you might want to check out the great (low) price on these bulbs:

http://bulbster.com/lightbulbs/6245b-p-2931.html?zenid=05b33811361bb24d81f9f7790d3654ec

The Carello number on the front face of my headlight is  00.183.700.  There's also some other numbers on the face - "IGM 0726 P" and "IGM 3751 LA".  On the rear, there's some other numbers - "lente 00.183.700", riflettore 00.183.010" and "portalampade 50.010.751" (the portalampade number is hard to read).  There's one more number on the rear - K11073 (35/35).  Could 35/35 be wattage?

   I'll have to go back & get the numbers off of my headlights for comparison - forgot to write them down. The"lente" number is for the clear glass lense only, "riflettore" is for the silver reflector part (the back half of the light), and "portalampade" is for the lightbulb socket. The 35/35 probably is the wattage, these Carello's may have been for a 500 or Topolino. The 600's use 45/40w bulbs instead, so that's what you'll want to get.

I have seen Selma brand headlights for sale that look the same as the Carello ones.  I wonder if these are completely interchangeable?

  Selma(?), Siem & Elma can all be similar to Carello but may have slight variations, like in the socket retainer design (wire arch vs. side tabs), the lamp fitting clips (on early models) or rims (on later models) & the shape of the trim rings, etc..

BTW, the headlights I have now are one piece.  You think there is a version to fit my style of bucket that has a separate reflector part?

  The old style headlights are usually sealed together at the lense/reflector joint, but can be (carefully) cut apart if needed (the old parts books show them as seperate parts, but the later books show them as one unit). Like if you break or crack a lense & happen to have a good lense (or maybe a spare old lamp with a broken/rusty reflector but a good lense), you can cobble together a good useable lamp from the various pieces. The same can be done if you just need a good reflector piece. That's why I'm interested in the pair of early 600 clear lenses you have - since those are specific to my application (cars), they'd be nice to have available "just in case". ;)

  I looked at the spare NOS reflector I have - unfortunately it is pitted/bubbling beneath the silver. Probably not noticeable with a lense fitted, but...pitted/bubbling nonetheless.

  If the extra set of 5" Carello's I have are the same as yours, would you be interested in trading them for your early 600 lenses?

Another thing, I assume that one has to be careful to get headlights for LHD cars if used in North America?  Ie., don't buy them from Britain or down under?

  Yes. But I wouldn't necessarily exclude those countries as a source. Sometimes LHD parts find their way there haphazardly (like if someone imports a Fiat & a few spares, or buys the wrong parts from overseas). I usually just ask the seller to verify or for a photo of the lense (fluting patterns are different).

-Jeff.
Title: Re: Headlights - continued
Post by: zippyfiat on November 05, 2007, 05:44:45 PM
I now have all of the headlight parts, except for the bulbs and sockets.  I am having a little trouble figuring out just how the rings attach to the body.  I have included photos below that show new fenders I have, the rings, and the clip that is supposed to be used to hold the ring in place.  The new fenders I have have 3 small square holes.  It appears that these are for the little clips?  When I put them in, I just can't get the ring to fit on.  Is there a trick to this, have I got the wrong parts, or am I missing something?  I have not been able to find a parts diagram to show how this all fits together.

Does anyone know how this is supposed to work exactly?  It also seems to be that if you need to change a bulb, you have to undo/remove the ring.  It seems like a tricky operation to do, and definitely not for a ham-fisted amateur mechanic!

Thanks,
Gil
Title: Re: Headlights - continued
Post by: viotti600 on November 06, 2007, 01:47:49 AM
The new fenders I have have 3 small square holes.  It appears that these are for the little clips?  When I put them in, I just can't get the ring to fit on.

 Those square holes are not for the clips. They are for a plastic bushing & long screw used on the base ring on a different type of (7") headlight assemblies. (Your replacement fenders are probably for later-model 600D/E cars).

Is there a trick to this, have I got the wrong parts, or am I missing something?  I have not been able to find a parts diagram to show how this all fits together.

  If I recall, the clips should slip onto the rim-edge of the bucket shown, with the little spring-tab facing out (I think) in order to provide a tension-fit against the trim ring once you install it. I can't tell how much space there is between the bucket edge & the outer/inner edges of the trim ring...the tab might face in if that's what's closest?

-JS.
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: zippyfiat on November 06, 2007, 04:23:28 AM
Aaaargh!  With your latest comments J.S., I've had a fresh look at the parts.  I still can't get it.  No matter which way I turn the clips around, or where I put them, nothing works.  It makes sense that the rings would clip onto to the inner bucket so that the thing bolts into the body.  It looks like maybe the clips ARE shaped to fit onto the inner bucket (see the photo below.  But this way, the clips are too far away from the ring.  The clips have two "barbs" as if the were meant to grab onto something?

Help! Any more thoughts??  The rings otherwise fit nicely against the headlights/buckets. ggggggggggggggggggggggg

Gil
Title: Re: Headlights
Post by: viotti600 on November 06, 2007, 09:38:21 AM
  I think you have the clip on the wrong bucket. It looks like you've put it on the black intermediary bucket - it should go on the edge of the outermost bucket the fits into the fender (the bucket shown in your first photo http://www.abarth-gmr.be/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1919.0;attach=13192;image ).

  The barbs on the clip are meant to keep the clip securely in place once it's pushed all the way down onto the rim/edge of the outer bucket.

-JS.
Title: Re: Headlights - That's it!
Post by: zippyfiat on November 06, 2007, 03:12:05 PM
J.S., you da man!!  Finally - that is how it works.  MANY THANKS!!!

That seems like an odd sort of way to attach something.  It means any time you need to replace a bulb, you have to fiddle with popping out those clips.  I can only imagine that with the barbs on them, they won't come out easily and that the ring could become damaged.  And I see that the bulbs have a very low rated life which doesn't help.  Mind you, I don't expect to be doing much night driving in the car.

And, I guess I can weld up the holes in the new fender.

Gil
Title: Re: Headlights - That's it!
Post by: viotti600 on December 01, 2007, 12:47:52 PM
That seems like an odd sort of way to attach something.  It means any time you need to replace a bulb, you have to fiddle with popping out those clips.  I can only imagine that with the barbs on them, they won't come out easily and that the ring could become damaged.

  You don't need to pull the clips off when you need to change a bulb. You simply pull/pry the alloy outer rim out/up/forward at the top or bottom, slip the rim edge past the tab on the clip, then pull the rim off. BTW, the clips are often installed one at the top & one at the bottom of the bucket edge.

And I see that the bulbs have a very low rated life which doesn't help.  Mind you, I don't expect to be doing much night driving in the car.

  Bulb life may depend on the brand. That one brand may be so inexpensive because they may not last as long as a different brand. Osram & Narva are brands I have used on my Viotti. A little more expensive at around $15-$20.

PS - I found my extra set of new 5" Carello headlights - check your email. ;)

-JS.