abarth squadra storica forum
Abarth / Special cars for sale our wanted by privats => abarth(+others)info, cars and parts wanted and for sale => Topic started by: viotti600 on April 16, 2008, 07:51:56 am
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I am looking for the following information about the early Abarth 750 Berlina (Sedan/Saloon), maybe you know at least a few answers to these questions?
1. What was the full trim package used on actual Abarth-built 750 Berlina cars? Was it different than on cars transformed via the available aftermarket 750 "kits"? Were the grille, whiskers, etc. from the Abarth-built cars stamped with a unique ID number on the back, like on the coachbuilt 750 cars?
2. What year(s)/model(s) used the small "derivazione" and "ABARTH 750" script emblems mounted on the front of the large/center "whiskers" on either side of the front grille?
3. Change in scorpion body design on the front/dash shield emblems; series 1 detailed scorpion vs. series 2 modified scorpion (I'm not concerned with the later series 3 type) - what year(s) did this occur?
4. Exact cut-off year for the two-tone vs. solid color paint scheme (I have conflicting info on it being either 1956 or 1957). Did the side stripe begin at the fender-mounted turn lamp? If so, front or rear end of the lamp housing? (need good original photos!)
5. Was the small front leafspring center torsion bar found on the 850TC also used on the early 750 Berlina models? When was it developed?
6. Were the noses of the bumperless 750 Berlina Mille Miglia cars hammered out (forward) in the center in order to improve aerodynamics?
7. What were the specific years/applications for the 2 different small (about 60mm Ø) Jaeger tachometer styles used on the 750 Berlina? (black face/white text 6800rpm tach vs. black/tan face/white text 8500rpm tach)
8. Was a temp GAUGE ever installed vs. using only the 600-style red warning light? If so, was it a separate gauge mounted on/under the dash, or was it the optional 600 Veglia gauge that fits into the 600 speedo housing?
9. Were side-bolster bars/braces ever used on the front seats (like on the Zagato 750 racing seat)?
10. Exactly which final drive ratios were used on the Berlina...same as on the alloy-bodied Abarth cars? 8/39, 9/41 &/or???
11. Did the 750 Berlina use the black/silver aluminum Abarth ID tag fastened to the muffler shroud sheetmetal (between the muffler hanger-bracket bolt heads) like on the coachbuilt Zagato/Allemano/Vignale cars? If so, was the Berlina's stamped TIPO number on this plate noted as "750/119" or "750/119A"? (or "750/119B" for the Mille Miglia version?) What was the difference between the 119 car & the 119A car? Was the letter "A" used to denote the sunroof-top Trasformabile (Convertible) from the full-hardtop Berlina (Sedan)? Or was there even any special notation for the sunroof variant at all? Was there ever a Mille Miglia version of the Trasformabile? Denoted 119A/B?
12. Did the 750 Berlina have the stamped letters/numbers on the muffler shroud sheetmetal (above the afore-mentioned ID tag) like on the 850TC cars? Was it stamped with the word "ABARTH" & the ENGINE type number (219 or 219A or 219B), with the Fiat chassis number stamped below it?
13. Did the 750 engine blocks have any stamped ID numbers/letters on them like on the OT1000 blocks? (the few 750 engine blocks I've seen just had the regular Fiat-stamped engine type/serial numbers) I know the crankshafts are all stamped with the Abarth type/year/etc..
14. Was the 850TC-type body panel engine mount sheetmetal bracing mod also used on the earlier 750 Berlina?
15. Was the round, alloy ABARTH-stamped air cleaner unit ever officially offered for the Abarth 750 (instead of the big black canister air cleaner unit)? Or did folks just use the alloy unit made for the Fiat 1100 because they shared the same Weber 32IMPE carb?
It's difficult to find good info on the early 750 Berlina like what's available for most of the other Abarth models. Most of the books I have seem to just skim right over this car, with maybe a brief mention &/or 1-2 small blurry photos (or they show the car waaaayyyy in the background of some other Abarth car they're mentioning). Quite frustrating. :(
Cheers,
-JS.
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JS,
Unable to help with the questions/answers, but if you do not have a copy of the Japanese CAR magazine Memories coloured reprint article on a specific 750 derivazione berlina ( telaio 236845), I can email you a copy.
I am unable to read Japanese so am unaware of print content of article. Subject vehicle has black 6800 small tacho, temperature gauge in speedo pod ,150kph scale etc
Cheers Trevor
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Trevor,
I'd love to have a copy of that article, thanks! I might even be able to translate some of the text via a friend of mine (Japanese). Any info gained is always a step ahead with these cars. Telaio 236845 would be a 1956 model - curious as to how it has a 150kph speedo?
Is the car in this article the same as the one shown below?
Cheers,
-Jeff.
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Jeff,
Yes it is the same car: 3 wipers, same 2 stickers on windscreen; two tone steel wheels etc. Will get to work with my scanner - be a few hours by time I send the 9 pages. After you get it let me know if you want larger copies of individual photos, some of which are but 2" x 1.75" as printed in the article.
Cheers Trevor
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Jeff,
Yes it is the same car: 3 wipers, same 2 stickers on windscreen; two tone steel wheels etc.
Nice. I can't recall where I got that photo from - some Vintage Rally site I visited a while back just happened to have it.
Will get to work with my scanner - be a few hours by time I send the 9 pages. After you get it let me know if you want larger copies of individual photos, some of which are but 2" x 1.75" as printed in the article.
Cheers Trevor
After you scan it, is there any chance you could post it on a separate online photo host instead of emailing it to me? (just email me the links instead?). I'm on dial-up access, so things like this often take FOREVER to download!
I'd love to have larger prints of ANY photos of the early 750 Sedans - nothing too huge, 800x600 res is plenty big enough. ;)
-JS.
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Hi Jeff,
Saw this after emailing reduced and full size copies. Will look for a photo host later today.
Cheers Trevor
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Trevor,
Don't bother with the photo-host thing, all came out perfect via email. Great photos! What year/issue number of CAR Magazine was this in? I may try to backorder a copy. ;)
Nice early car! This car is rather interesting...it appears authentic, but there are a few items that seem odd to me. Perhaps some items were missing & were simply replaced with whatever was available at the time the car was restored, & they figured nobody would know the difference - I don't know. ???
Thanks to the larger pics you just sent, I now know that the speedo unit in this car is more than likely from a later model! (and is exactly what I had already planned to do for my car if I can't find an original Abarth 140kmh speedo faceplate)
Funny...they have the wrong script emblem on the dashboard (the one they have on the dash is what goes on each fender - ironically the one my car's missing on one side). The dash script emblem should read "fiat derivazione 750". This was a standard item even in the "Derivazione" kits.
I'm curious if the 1000 Miglia flag emblems on the fenders are original? I know on the coachbuilt cars, these badges were to signify that this car has either of the "Mille Miglia" type 150/151 factory engine builds in it. I suppose the same could be true on the Berlina's using these engines.
Also wondering if the Abarth ID tag on this muffler shroud is stamped correctly? Just "TIPO 100"? That doesn't sound right compared to the other 750 cars (coachbuilt). Sounds like somebody just stamped it like what it reads on the Fiat VIN tag, LOL. (According to the chart in the Berni Motori catalogs, the Abarth designation of "TIPO 100" corresponds to the Fiat 850-based 1000 OTR Radiale). I haven't found any info on what the 750 Berlina's Abarth ID tag was stamped as...I figured something like TIPO 750/119 or something?
The tach holder is homemade. The dash parcel tray is 600d, isn't it? That's obviously a later 850TC alloy sump. The 145/80/12 Pirelli's are a nice touch! This is a really neat car, glad to have found more detailed photos on it rather than just the one photo I had of it. THANKS!!! ;)
I think I'll just sit here for a few hours & drool over the photos some more...LOL. :)
MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................
-JS.
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JS,
You seem to know a lot about the early cars. Can you tell us anything about this very early car in the video I uploaded onto youtube?
The early car appears at about 1 min 40 sec into the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VBWmWETVVA
Jim
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You seem to know a lot about the early cars.
Actually, I don't know a whole lot about the early cars. That's why I'm asking so many questions! :)
Can you tell us anything about this very early car in the video I uploaded onto youtube? The early car appears at about 1 min 40 sec into the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VBWmWETVVA
Really hard to tell much about the car from a short blurry video clip like that...though I can offer some observations.
1. It is an early car (1955-56) notable by the slider windows & the early Topolino-style seats/upholstery (which I really like, especially the plastic map pockets at the front edges of the doors - very hard to find in good shape!). The 2-tone Abarth paint job on this car is wrong, or I should say "incomplete"; the roof should be painted red like the stripes on the hood & the sides of the car.
2. Not sure where the little "Elaborata" fender emblem is from or why it's there. Perhaps this is an early Fiat 600 with a few items added from an Abarth 750 "kit" available back then (as noted in that advertisement posted on the windshield) - like the front grille/whiskers & hood ornament? Hence the 750 "elaboration" term...seems I've read that term elsewhere before.
3. The tach shown isn't the Jaeger type usually used by Abarth, the needle orientation is different, and the tach location looked a tad offset to the left from others I've seen (might just be the video angle). The video was too jumpy & out of focus for me to be able to read the speedo rating accurately, though I did see it had a temp gauge installed and the text read ACQUA in that area (usually reads OLIO with an oil level warning light). Same for the emblems on the right side of the dash...too hard to see, though the outline/shape/shadows looked too big anyway to be the usual 750 ones. Maybe some other emblem was put there by the owner of the car?
4. The early Abarth 750 cars did use the stock Fiat 600 steering wheel, but had an Abarth horn button identical to the one used on the Zagato/Allemano 750 & the 850TC. This car looked to maybe have the Abarth horn button, or maybe a plain black stock Fiat 600 horn button. The light reflection was right in the center of it the whole time, making it hard to tell.
5. I'm not sure, but I think I could make out the image of a 7-vent steel wheel on the left/front for maybe a half-second?
I couldn't see any more of the car to know what else may be there. It took way too long to download that clip for me (I'm on dial-up service), so I'm not about to do that again! LOL.
Thanks for the view, though!
Cheers,
-JS.
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Hi Jeff,
Glad the article arrived OK.
The approximately 240 page booklet of Car magazine size and format is a compiloation of articles on Abarth from a number of earlier issues. The compilation is dated 28 August 2001 and is titled "Car Magazive Memories ABARTH". ISBN4-87366-740-2 C9453 Yen 2286E I got my copy at Anthony Berni's shop in Maleo, Italy in July 2004, if memory serves me right about the date. Anthony had a number of copies then for sale. I have no idea re his current stock.
Other articles are on 1000 Bialbero, AS 2000 Corsa, FA OT1300 coupe, Colucci and Avidano interview, world meeting 1991, 850TC, TCR, 850TC Nurburgring, OT1000 berlina, Lancia Rally, A112, 1000TC, OT2000 coupe, OT2000 berlina, 1000SP, Record Monza ba, AS 1300, Double Bubble, 356B, 124 CSA, 131 Rally, and 037; all to Car Magazines superb quality of photography and presentation
Cheers Trevor
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A few answers to my own questions, for anyone else wondering...
Q-1. Evidence I've found indicates that the front grille, whiskers, etc. on 750 Berlina cars were not stamped with a unique ID number on the back like on the other alloy-bodied 750 cars.
Q-3. From what I've found so far, the scorpion design change on the large front grille badge & the small dashboard badge appears to have taken place around 1960. One 1958 & two 1959 Sedans I've come across still had the early scorpion design on both badges, all three cars were USA version type.
Q-4. The two-tone color paint scheme was most likely used only on the 1956 (& maybe early 1957?) cars, with later cars reverting to one solid paint color.
SIDENOTE: From what I've found, the Abarth 210A (produced early 1956) was the first 600-based Abarth car. This would mean that there was no 1955 Abarth 750 Berlina (as many folks believe), only 1956-on.
Q-9. The 8/39 final drive ratio was used on most 750 Berlina cars, with 9/41 probably being optional on later "Series 2" cars.
Q-10. The 750 Berlina did not use the black/silver aluminum Abarth ID tag fastened to the muffler shroud sheetmetal (between the muffler hanger-bracket bolt heads). These tags came into use on the later Record Monza & 850TC series cars.
Q-11. The 750 Berlina did not have the stamped letters/numbers on the muffler shroud sheetmetal (above the afore-mentioned ID tag) like on the 850TC cars.
I'd still like to hear any answers to the other questions posted earlier...anyone?
Cheers,
-JS.
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hello all,
can anyone tell me right away where this engine that i have in my garage comes from ?
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http://www.bernimotori.com/abarth_monoalbero_en.html
Hi Naegeli, looks like an 850 TC from this list.
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cool, have not been on the berni site for a while...and why is there a BA prior to the 217 D...?
any idea here?
this is the engine that was in my 1000 record monza bialbero that lost its engine many years a
go.
peter
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...and why is there a BA prior to the 217 D...? any idea here?
Look again at your crankshaft (not at the photo), it should read "ABA" there, not "BA". The "ABA" designates "ABARTH", the "214D" is the 850TC Stradale variant, and "1579" is the crankshaft's serial number.
By the way, how is your engine-inquiry post related to the "INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina" that this thread was discussing? ???
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thanks for the info...again.
post related: i entered 850 TC as search and this post was at 28 %..close enough for me, i didn't want to start a new topic just for one stupid question and thought that maybe someone else is looking at the forum the same way i do: checking new posts; seams that i was right .
thanks again. btw: the bialbero (with 1050 engine) can be seen on my homepage under racing.....akita-racing.com
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post related: i entered 850 TC as search and this post was at 28 %..close enough for me, i didn't want to start a new topic just for one stupid question and thought that maybe someone else is looking at the forum the same way i do: checking new posts; seams that i was right.
Actually,I was not checking for new posts. When I created the original topic/thread/post, I clicked the "automatic email notification" setting to be notified when any new replies were posted to this particular thread, because I was seeking information on this specific topic (that's why I created my own thread in the first place). I came here today solely because I was notified via email that there were new responses to my inquiry (thread) about the Abarth 750 Berlina. Obviously, your post is not related to this subject.
Common courtesy on most forums is to start your own thread if it's a different topic, no matter if it's one simple question or a full-blown inquisition. (often the Forum Moderator will move unrelated posts to a different/more suitable location, just to keep the forum in order & each topic flowing smoothly)
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okay, noted.
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I own what is believed to be a real 1960 Abarth 750. It no longer has the original engine but the emblems are correct as are the internals in the transaxle. It has been very well cared for it's entire life and is rust free. It has upgrades including a later Abarth dash and as it's fourth engine, a 1050 PBS Twincam. Over the years some of the trim was removed and a front radiator was installed. Now I have to find out what should be on the car and balance the original with the modified stuff I want to keep. So any information you find I would also like to know. I will also be happy to share anything I find.
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best it that you send our pkace here the photos from you car than all(whe) can say something about you car.Inside and engine compatement
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Ok, I went out and took some pictures with my cell phone. This is my car. It is a totally rust free example. The red is not the original color. Some things have been upgraded. I have traced the ownership back nearly 40 years. The previous owner has had it for over 30 years. The twincam was Paul at PBS's last new head. He personally built the motor for the last owner many years ago but was run for the first time other than on the dyno, about 2 weeks ago in my garage. The car originally came with a 750 but was changed to an 850 when the 750 blew up. The next motor it had was a pbs built single cam after the 850. The past owner didn't think that was fast enough at right at 100 hp. I have seen the dyno sheet for that motor. So the past owner had this motor built around 10 years ago. It was never mated to the chassis until about a year ago when I flew to Califorina and helped the owner put it is so it could be shipped to me. I bought it with the motor out.
It is a 1050 overboard with flattop pistons. It has the PBS twincam as you can see with a turbo. The previous owner was not 100% sure the car was original even when the owner before him swore it was. Paul at PBS told him to bring him the transaxle as fakes almost never have the right stuff in the transaxle. Paul took it apart and said it was Abarth.
The previous owner put on the front radiator and had the flares done at a Ferrari dealer nearly 30 years ago. He also took off the other trim that you now see missing.
Anyway, as you can see many upgrades over the years have been done. The Tach was switched for a 10,000 RPM Tach when he put in the single cam engine. It has a double bubble steering coloum so he could lower the steering wheel. If you will notice the dash and switch placement. I have checked closly and there is no hole to the left of the ignition switch which is kind of weird. The previous owner swears the dash is original. I didn't believe it. Greg Schmidt once told me that he has heard of late 750s that came with the 850 dash. But I have do data past that.
I can't wait to get it ready to drive. If anyone has any additional data on 750s I would like to hear about it.
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I wish to have this to in my stable
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Ok, I went out and took some pictures with my cell phone. This is my car.
A few things I can note solely from your photos:
You said your car is a 1960 750, yet I see you have 600D taillights. Does your car also have vent-windows (1/4-glass) in the doors? If so you likely have a 600D-based car, which would indicate this is (was) probably not a 750 (750 Berlinas were normally 600-based, 850TC's were 600D-based). If you don't have vent-windows, then the original 600-style taillights were likely replaced earlier.
The 850TC radiator assembly & gauge unit are obviously not original for a 750, so I'm ignoring those. Ditto on the PBS engine/head assembly & the Campagnolo wheels.
The front fender & dash emblems look to be original for the later-model 750 Berlina, but the rear decklid emblem is the earlier style. The Abarth shield on the front grille is the wrong style of scorpion for a 750 Berlina (yours is late '60's/'70's type).
I can't see the rear decklid props clearly enough to see if they are original type or reproduction items.
The steering wheel is late '60's/early '70s-on, usually Fiat 124, Fiat 850 & Abarth A112. The u-jointed steering column looks to be out of a Fiat 850, not 750GT; the steering knuckle/joint is visible thru the square hole to the right of the fuel tank.
As for the dash - it looks to me that the switch hole normally found to the left of the ignition switch was part of the dash sheetmetal that has been cut away to install the 850TC-style gauge unit. The hole (toggle switch) seen immediately to the right of your ignition switch is not original - it's most likely the left-hand switch relocated in a new spot. The switch on the far right is in the normal location. If you measure the gap between the ignition switch & the far right toggle switch, then flip it over to the left, that should give you the distance where the toggle should normally be on the left side (about on the edge of your gauge assembly). Your dash is also missing the padded upholstery piece that runs the width of the lower 1/3 edge of the dash (that what those little slot-holes are for, they're the mounting holes).
If your car was a true 750 Berlina, I'd say it is all but lost due to the previous owner's "upgrades" through the years. Sad to say, but you now have another 850TC clone like many others out there. Nice stuff on the car, but unfortunately not the "correct" assemblage of parts for either a 750 or an 850TC (or even a true replica of either). =(
I'll bet it revs nice, though! Just drive it & enjoy it. =)
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I think Jeff just tries to pretend he knows something about these cars! :) Very good eagle eyes.
A few things I noticed: The obvious ones are that the front rad. housing and steering wheel are much later. I think the rear deck lid props are wrong as the wing nuts don't look right (would have to dig mine out to see). The gauges are later type, so I'm guessing the PO simply installed a complete set of gauges and housing as opposed to reusing the speedo and triple oil/water/fuel gauges. The front fender flares look wrong to me and look like later TCT type. It's hard to tell by the one photo, but the rear fender flares look completely wrong in shape and seems more like a custom or homemade modification.
The car has obviously been repainted. The interior floor mats are missing and the door upholstery panel is wrong. It seems like this car is a much altered original Abarth, or an attempt at a clone as Jeff notes, and repainted along the way. The fuzzy photos make it hard to see more clues. I wonder if maybe the PO had an original car that got destoryed and he salvaged some of the bits and pieces? Shouldn't there be the Abarth serial no. stamped in the engine compartment?
If you look at the floor jack in the 2nd photo, you can see a reflection which is bounced off the tool chest, you can see the faint outline of the glass in the driver's door. This seems to show no 1/4 window......
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I think Jeff just tries to pretend he knows something about these cars! :)
Just flying by the seat of my pants...how am I doing? LOL.
I think the rear deck lid props are wrong as the wing nuts don't look right (would have to dig mine out to see).
Originals did have the wing nuts on the upper bolts, in order to easily adjust the props either to the decklid fittings (open) or to the engine bay rail fittings (closed). I can see that this car is missing the upper fitting on each engine bay side drip-rail.
The gauges are later type, so I'm guessing the PO simply installed a complete set of gauges and housing as opposed to reusing the speedo and triple oil/water/fuel gauges.
I'm assuming by "later type", you're talking about 850TC gauges. We both know the 750 had nothing like this (I say this only to clarify for the owner of the car).
The front fender flares look wrong to me and look like later TCT type. It's hard to tell by the one photo, but the rear fender flares look completely wrong in shape and seems more like a custom or homemade modification.
I presumed these were both part of the previous owners' modifications (again, the 750 had neither of these).
Shouldn't there be the Abarth serial no. stamped in the engine compartment?
My info to date says that the familiar Abarth alloy VIN/ID tag was not used on the 750 Berlina like it was on the alloy-bodied coachbuilt 750's. The 750 Berlina also did not have an ID stamping on the muffler shroud like the later 850TC variants (remember, he's asking if this is a 750). His muffler shroud is obviously long-gone by now! LOL
If you look at the floor jack in the 2nd photo, you can see a reflection which is bounced off the tool chest, you can see the faint outline of the glass in the driver's door. This seems to show no 1/4 window......
Ok, you lost me on this...I can't see what you're talking about at all. ???
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I thought the Abarth wing nuts on the props were a somewhat different shape/size? From what I have seen, the later gauge faces are different than the early cars that had the "pie plate" housing. At least they were on the original cluster I bought (and since sold except for 2 gauges). I was wondering if some of the early Abarth sedans used stamped serial numbers on the chassis I guess that's a reason why it's so difficult to tell if the early cars are genuine.
My last comment was meant as a joke. :( Not doing okay here, LOL!
Gil Nicholls
ps: Haven't figured out now you do the highlited reply thing you do.
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ps: Haven't figured out now you do the highlited reply thing you do.
Easy. To the right of the title of this response, you'll see the little blue box that says "Quote". Simply click it. You'll then note my response text (of my post) has some simple HTML code before it & after it - basically code enclosed in square brackets like these [ ]. You can either write a response to my entire (quoted) post, or if you want to respond to a few written lines (ideas) separately you can copy/paste the HTML that goes before/after the particular text you're responding to (to make it stand out in its own purple box).
The HTML that goes before the quoted text starts with [quote author...(basically telling the computer to "begin quote"), then there's the actual text you want highlighted, then the HTML to say you want to "end quote" [/quote
Note that I can't actually write the full code to show you, because the forum software will simply translate that as real instructions & will make THAT text into a quote.
See? I'm using your name, but this is what happens when I try to write/type the HTML code to show you...
You use the "begin quote" and the "end quote" HTML to basically mark the text you want highlighted (to respond to), sort of like you'd write quotation marks before & after a particular word or phrase you're emphasizing. Got that? ;)
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Well, were to start. The rear tail lights and the front side markers were updated by the previous owner as were the flares and the front radiator. The front scorpion emblem was also replaced as I was told the old one had fallen apart. The dash never had the hole to the left. Measured there is enough room and the metal extends a bit under the dash and there was never a hole at the same distance as the one on the far right. Yes I know the mats are missing and the pad under the dash is off. The seats have been modifed as well. The steering wheel was also upgraded by the previous owner. The steering column is not 850. I have a PBS built twincam turbo 850 coupe next to the Abarth. The owner said he got it from a double bubble but maybe it was a different Abarth. The previous owner also had a twincam aluminum bodied abarth.
Yes the car was repainted and is totally rust free. The car is not a 600D it is a 600 with a 600 Abarth transaxle which was pulled and confirmed by Paul at PBS. Two owners ago he said he blew up the 750 engine and replaced it with an 850. Remember that 750's were slow and considered pretty much worthless so people didn't care if they updated them. The previous two owners didn't care at all. They had a "real" aluminum bodied Abarth.
The firewall has also been cut for room for the PBS single cam engine. I have the original firewall pieces that I will put back in when I make the engine fuel injected.
I am not interested in returning the car to its original stock state. I quite enjoy the upgrades, it is in the spirit of Abarth himself. I love the PBS twincam as there were less than 40 ever made with very few still running. Plus this one will go like stink. I just want to keep any original 750 parts that don't lower its performance.
The car may be a very updated Abarth 750 from the factory or it may have been built as an Abarth kit. Either way I can't prove it nor do I care. When all 140 hp hits I will be grinning.
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I always say ,you must have a car that YOU like,iff you dont like it sale it .Iff someone wish that you change it more to original than you can ask what he have.Cars like this must be driven and use for driving with FUN.A abarth was always changing in his live and NEVER was a racing our rally car two times the same.In the Abarth factory the build race cars with a hamer and so light possible and never look to original.Iff you have Real Race our Rally car than you can see that the where never smooth our like new out of factory.If you only wish to have a client car that go to a Show its your option not someone that wish to drive (LIVE)with your car.I think whe must be happy that there are may persons that put other type of engine in a car other wish it was not fun.But this is MY opinion(and I think it was Carlo's to)
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This just goes to show how many different games can be played in the car hobby. Some guys love the game of making a car as close as possible to how it left the factory. They devote tons of hours to research and so on to make an automotive time capsule. Others are into polishing their cars from top to bottom and showing them. Others race and others make street cars. Still others do custom creations of some sort or another. Jeff, it is obvious you are into the first one mentioned. I am not. I personally would not buy a stock Abarth 750. For me it is too slow and too unusable however neat and historic they may be but I would definitely admire one when I saw it.
In my mind a Shelby mustang is still a Shelby even when it is modifed to go faster. So what if the engine is now 350 cubes and it has flares, cool, its faster and still a Shelby.
My car is a higly modified Abarth 750. It is not a clone as it is an Abarth. Does it still have the original engine, nope, it blew up many years ago. What is does have is a very period correct PBS Twincam conversion that is likely worth more that the car and its connected to the original Abarth transaxle. And if I choose to put on rear flares it still isn't a 1970 1000 Corsa replica. It is an Abarth 750 with flares.
My Abarth 750 with the turbo PBS twincam is very fast. So fast I will have to do many more upgrades to the suspension so I don't end up killing myself in it. I raced a 1000 Corsa clone back in the late 80's and early 90's so I know what needs to be done. But stronger stub axles and heavy springs with bigger swaybars don't stop it from being an Abarth 750.
From your point of view the previous owner ruined the car. When I am done with what I will do to it you will for sure think I have ruined the car. You see I bought the car because of the engine not inspite of it. From my point of view I can now do stuff with it as it is fast enough and handles well enough to bother playing with. Are you wrong, nope. Am I wrong, nope. We just have two different games that we are playing with cars. As Guy said, Abarth never raced the car in the same configuration twice. He continued to upgrade them as can be seen in the evolution from 600 - 750 - 850 - 1000 and from street to race version. I feel I am just continuing that legacy. However, I do not want it to lose some of the 750 charm. Because of that I will put the fiat script back on and may put the hood trim back on. I don't think I will put on the taller tripod decklid support. I will leave the 850 TC dash is it is more functionable and I like it. I may even put in carpet instead of the rubber mats because it is lighter. The interior, except for the roll bar and seats will be returned to standard trim.
The reason I got onto this topic was so that I could make sure and keep the 750 flare as original as I can within the constraints of my intended use. Like the tail lights will be returned to original. The previous owner liked the euro look, I don't. I have the housings but the lenses are missing. Unfortunatly, the previous owner sold the pieces he took off the car so I have to find them again.
I am always interested in sharing information regarding these great cars and may we all have fun with whatever our car game happens to be.
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This just goes to show how many different games can be played in the car hobby. Some guys love the game of making a car as close as possible to how it left the factory. They devote tons of hours to research and so on to make an automotive time capsule. Others are into polishing their cars from top to bottom and showing them. Others race and others make street cars. Still others do custom creations of some sort or another. Jeff, it is obvious you are into the first one mentioned. I am not.
Actually, I'm into all of those except #2 - I'm just too damn lazy for THAT! ;) I'm "devoted" to the 750 Berlina because that is the car I own & am in the process of bringing back to life. I am trying to de-bastardize the car of all of its' previous owners' indulgences, in order to bring the car back to its original true/pure Abarth form. While trying to gather missing pieces for the car, I could find very little info about this particular model, as most "750" enthusiasts are primarily involved with the alloy-bodied (Allemano/Zagato/etc. coachbuilt) cars, rather than the "lowly" 750 Sedan (I've been in that club myself, having previously owned a 750 Zagato & a 750 Allemano). Thus began my personal self-schooling on the Berlina, & through countless hours (months) of research I've learned a bit about the cars, which I'm happy to share with other 750 owners/enthusiasts.
The apparent Quixotic fight against disinformation (wrong facts) on these cars has become a sort of adopted trait of mine. I meant no disrespect to you or your car, only offering information & my objective opinion on your car since that is what you asked for in the first place. I LIKE the PBS twin-cam head, & for a while have been considering installing one on my 750 or maybe on one of my Fiat 850's (a friend has one that I *might* be able to pry out of his hands?).
I personally would not buy a stock Abarth 750. For me it is too slow and too unusable however neat and historic they may be but I would definitely admire one when I saw it.
Yes, the 750 Berlina's are extremely simple/primitive & slow, but if prepped properly can be quite spirited & enjoyable to drive. That is their nature; "getting a quart out of a pint pot" is the essence of a 750, it is what they are known for & capable of doing quite well if asked. Enjoyable simplicity.
In my mind a Shelby mustang is still a Shelby even when it is modifed to go faster. So what if the engine is now 350 cubes and it has flares, cool, its faster and still a Shelby.
But what if it's just a 289 Mustang with Cobra emblems, GT500 decals & California side scoops? (zing!) LOL
My car is a highly modified Abarth 750. It is not a clone as it is an Abarth.
I misunderstood your first post - I thought you were trying to determine if your car was a 750 or not (?).
Does it still have the original engine, nope, it blew up many years ago. What is does have is a very period correct PBS Twincam conversion that is likely worth more that the car and its connected to the original Abarth transaxle. And if I choose to put on rear flares it still isn't a 1970 1000 Corsa replica. It is an Abarth 750 with flares.
What I was (unsuccessfully) trying to point out was that, even if your car is/was an Abarth 750 originally, with the addition of all of this later 850/1000TC type gear, you're basically "transforming" the car from a 750 into an 850/1000TC replica, but then the 750 emblems conflict with what those additions represent. Rather confusing. Sorta like seeing a green STOP sign on the road. LOL ;)
My Abarth 750 with the turbo PBS twincam is very fast. So fast I will have to do many more upgrades to the suspension so I don't end up killing myself in it. I raced a 1000 Corsa clone back in the late 80's and early 90's so I know what needs to be done. But stronger stub axles and heavy springs with bigger swaybars don't stop it from being an Abarth 750.
If you've removed/replaced nearly all of what made the car an Abarth 750 to begin with, then don't you basically just have a Fiat 600 with Abarth emblems & transaxle (ring & pinion)? (more of a philosophical question, like the "chicken & the egg" question)
As Guy said, Abarth never raced the car in the same configuration twice. He continued to upgrade them as can be seen in the evolution from 600 - 750 - 850 - 1000 and from street to race version. I feel I am just continuing that legacy.
Ah, but Abarth did race the 750 Berlinas in the same configuration twice - over & over again! The 750cc class homologation rules dictated it, & Abarth won hundreds of victories doing it. Plus, I'm pretty sure your car was not raced by Abarth, it was a street 750 Berlina with the same specs as many other 750 Berlinas sold across the world. The evolution of the 750 engine occurred mainly in the alloy-bodied cars, not the 600-bodied 750 Berlina. The 600D-bodied 850/1000TC cars are an entirely different story.
However, I do not want it to lose some of the 750 charm. Because of that I will put the fiat script back on and may put the hood trim back on.
"750 charm"??? What charm? You've already eliminated/replaced nearly everything about the car that represents a 750. Do you really think a few emblems are going to fool, errr...convince people? (Actually, it will, because people are stupid like that). Moot point - your car, not mine. ;)
I don't think I will put on the taller tripod decklid support.
Good, because we wouldn't want to confuse people (joking). The tripods were later 850TC items, not 750.
The reason I got onto this topic was so that I could make sure and keep the 750 flare as original as I can within the constraints of my intended use.
Seeing what you have & understanding what you want to do with &/or get from the car, I honestly don't see that happening. You have a 750 that's trying desperately to be an 850TC, but not quite. Even if you put the other items back on as you said, it still rings out as conflicted (for lack of a better word).
Like the tail lights will be returned to original. The previous owner liked the euro look, I don't. I have the housings but the lenses are missing.
They did make Euro bicolor lenses in the earlier style, if that's what you're after. They're found listed on eBay every now & then.
Unfortunately, the previous owner sold the pieces he took off the car so I have to find them again.
Hey, I know what that feels like! (my car). :(
I am always interested in sharing information regarding these great cars and may we all have fun with whatever our car game happens to be.
Agreed. ;)
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I want to revitalize this topic because for a few month now I own a Fiat 600 Jagst (Fiat 600 build in Heilbronn, Germany) with sun roof. Build in 1960 with 633ccm-engine. See pictures below. That car wasn't on road for more than 45 years ;-)
As I did in my fiat 500 I want to upgrade the engine to a "Fiat600derivazioneABARTH750" as you could do it in the '60s with the "cassetta trasformazione Abarth per la Fiat 600".
I'm not willing to build a clone car. I just want to upgrade the enging as Abarth did.
for that purpose I am looking for any information about that transformation. As jeff stated it truely is not easy to find good information about the Abarth 750. About 850TC you find nearly any information but the 750 is not as present in the internet and elsewhere.
now I found "Mahlon's Abarth Home Pages" that gives a little info, read the "Fiat600transformationAbarth750" brochure and "Tuning and Modifying the Fiat 600 Engine" by John Rich (bought on ebay).
Some things I know. But many I don't.
here I found an italian wiki about cassetta trasformazione http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassetta_di_trasformazione_Abarth_per_la_Fiat_600 (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassetta_di_trasformazione_Abarth_per_la_Fiat_600)
I hope I'll find someone who can help me whith my questions that will arise while building the engine (will last for years, I think)
For example:
- What are the diameters of inlet and outlet valves? I did not read anything about the diameter, I only read about lighter valves...
- what modifications were made on the cylinder head?
- I have a Weber 32 IMPE carb. is that the correct type or can it be used at least?
- what is the difference on the radiator of the 750 comparised with the standard Fiat 600 radiator?
- is it correct that Abarth used stronger head bolds?
- what kind of exhaust was used?
- what was the difference/modification on the oil pump?
I am thinking about buying oversize high compression pistons (have to see what I get: 60,8mm or so), boring the block to the necessary width and using a Fiat 850 crankshaft with 63,5mm lift (if I do not find a affordable original Abarth crankshaft with 64,0mm) using 600D con-rods. With that the engine will have 737ccm. Quite near at Abarth... What do you think about that?
...and many questions will follow, I think ;-)
I will be happy about every answer and every hint... :-)
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Hello,
I have '56 derivazione ABARTH750 berlina Sr.1.
This is kept an original condition.
If you still want to get its detail information, I can provide it.
Thank you.
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very nice
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yes, indeed: a very nice car.
I already have seen pictures of this car somewhere in the internet...
I am still looking for parts for my derivazione-project. But I am not in hurry.
I already have found some original engine parts (collettore aspirazione, mechanical rev-counter drive) and some parts of 850tc that are fitting (e.g. oil pan).
I did not find an original
I'm still not sure what pistons I want to install. I'm still did not find good pistons with about 61mm in diameter. As crankshaft I want to use a 63,5mm-Fiat-crank.
Im still not sure what valves I should use. What valves fit in an early 633ccm-cylinderhead?
the carburettor will be a Solex 32 PBIC for first use. Later probably I will use a Weber 32 IMPE