abarth squadra storica forum

abarth cars - community => fiat abarth 750 / 850 and TC => Topic started by: abarth595 on November 20, 2007, 02:24:41 pm

Title: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: abarth595 on November 20, 2007, 02:24:41 pm
To my fellow Abarth nuts!!

I was recently looking at a 850TC for sale here in the UK.  I am very keen to buy the car as is the seller.  There is one small thing that I need your advice with.  The car is reported as a real 850TC later upgraded by its former American Owner to 1000TC specification.  The seller says that he has a thick file of history on the car but it has gone missing.  I trust the seller as I have dealt with him in the past, but I really want to check if it is an authentic car as the asking price is authentic too!!  The car has chassis number 2101923 and engine number 4075537 stamped on an Abarth chassis / engine number plaque in the engine bay.  Do any of you have a reference book that can be checked?  Is there anything else I can do to check the authenticity? 

There are some funny items that confuse me on the car such as:

- the instruments binnacle seems correct with the rubber strip at the back but is missing the Jaeger rev counter and speedometer but does have the correct 3rd 4 way Jaeger instrument.

- The engine seems to be a Fiat 850 unit with out an Abarth cam cover, although it does have a smaller Abarth water pump.

Maybe I am way out of my league with this one but it has always been my dream to have a 600 based abarth along side the 595 replica I have.

I thank you all very much in advance for your help!!

Best regards,

Arnoud


Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: viotti600 on November 20, 2007, 06:03:47 pm
 Sounds a bit fishy to me. A "real" Abarth isn't really an Abarth in the sense without the correct engine (which is a good percentage of the value &/or price of the car). It sounds like just another Fiat 850-powered Abarth 850tc clone. Or does the seller have the original engine included but on a shelf in the garage? The ID tag in the engine bay is available as a reproduction, & can easily faked (stamped to match chassis # & engine #). If the stamped engine # on the tag matches that stamped # on the Fiat 850 engine, you've definitely got a fake! LOL.

 Besides what the seller has said, what is it about this car leads you to believe it's a "real" Abarth? The seller says it was "upgraded to 1000TC spec"...this doesn't mean very much if it has a Fiat 850 engine conversion (rather than a 1000TC engine). Unless he's only talking about suspension upgrades?

 About the gauge unit...reproduction fiberglass (or alloy) housings are widely available, a rubber strip on the back doesn't mean squat. Speedo & tach missing, there goes a lot of value. The fuel/water/oil tri-gauge may be real, or may be a reproduction (I think there are a few variations using either Fiat 1200/1400/1500 Cabrio gauge or a similar gauge from another make with a repro "Abarth" dial/face installed).

 Photos of the car may help confirm or deny its' authenticity. There are so many fake 850TC's out there that the buyers' best defense is really KNOWLEDGE of what should & should not be on the car.

-JS.
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Pantdino on November 21, 2007, 06:46:38 am
How much is the seller asking for the car? 

I am not an expert on these matters, but it seems to me that without the missing file you have to assume this car is a replica.  If the seller wants a "real Abarth" price for the car he's going to have to invest the time required to find the file.  Proof of ownership, that the car ran certain races on certain dates, etc would possibly make the car worth more.

As proof of the importance of the paperwork, when I was looking for a car Paul van der Heijden found one that everyone who knew it thought was an "original Abarth" 1000TC.. But when he actually called the previous owners, he found that one of them had made the car from a stock Fiat in the 80's.  So it was a replica, no matter how many Abarth parts it had on it.

You may want to post some photos here, as Paul regularly checks this site and can offer an opinion.
Or you could ring Tony Castle-Miller of the MIddle Barton Garage there in the UK and email him some photos. I met him at Tony Berni's this last summer and he seems like a good chap.

Personally I'm not sure I'd pay more for a car that just ran small local club races that few people have heard of, even if it was in the 60's.  It would only mean that the metal was fatigued and more prone to failure in the future. 

The big problem with Abarths is that Karl never kept records of which chassis numbers were sold as Abarths from the factory or which cars won which races.   
So it seems to me that unless someone can prove beyond a doubt that a certain car is original , you have to assume it isn't.

Jim
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Alex van de Wetering on November 21, 2007, 10:07:12 am
Arnoud,

Aha, the beige TC. Does the current owner know if the car was based on a 850TC Stradale or a 850TC Corsa? In case the car is built on a Stradale base it would prove harder to find out if the car is an original, but if the car is based on a Corsa, you should be able to find reinforcements under the chassis. Is the chassis number also stamped in the engine bay (side panel, drivers side)?

Alex
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: abarth595 on November 21, 2007, 12:24:32 pm
Dear Jim, Alex, JS and all,

    I really appreciate your feedback and indeed you have shown me that I am a little out of my depth on this one.  I have a lot of research to do and need to follow up with even further inspections.  The car was reportedly a 850TC stradale which as you had mentioned makes the challenge even harder (no interesting suspension set up, chassis reinforcements or fancy rear brakes with additional calipers for the hand brake, right?).  The bits that car does have are also very easy to replicate/source.  Unless a history file is present it I guess it would be near impossible to answer the fundamental question.  I am attaching some images.  Unfortunately, due to the fact that the car was in a tight space I was unable to take shots of the engine.  However, I was able to squeeze my arm in to take a shot of the chassis plate, which as Alex had suggested was on the driver's side of the engine bay.     Let me know what your gut feeling is and if there are any bullet proof ways of determining the authenticity from here.  I thank you all again for your feedback and advice, I sincerely appreciate it!!

Best regards,

Arnoud
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Vincent on November 21, 2007, 05:13:10 pm
Hi Arnoud,

There is a very simple and reliable way to determine if this car is real.
Wil mail you tomorrow, have some mail problems at the moment.

Best regards, Vincent.
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: zippyfiat on November 21, 2007, 05:27:51 pm
Well, I have a few thoughts.  I am by no means an expert, so anyone can feel free to correct me.

 The instruments, and instrument housing are completely wrong.  The housing shape, while the correct style, is not quite the correct shape.  I don't think that any of the TCs had wide fender arches (flares, wings, extensions).  There is a "nurburgring" scipt on the dash.  If this is supposed to be a real 850TC "nurburgring" model, then the car would a '62 or '63 model, and there should be no fender flares at all.  The nurburgring models had a "swallow" on the front hood, and they had badges on the fenders on each side, just ahead of the doors.  The whiskers are wrong for a nurburgring, and there should be a "fiat" script just above the Abarth emblem (over the horn opening).  There should be a side marker light just aft of the headlight on each side, and horizonttal alloy side molding along the fenders and doors, starting just aft of the side marker lights.  I believe that the later 850TCs also had parallelogram wipers.  The rear view mirror is from a later 600, and can't be from circa 1962.  The interior should be dead stock for a 62-ish car, but you can't tell from the photos.

The steering wheel looks correct, and the wheels look to be period correct Campagnolo, except the width might be wrong.  A later 850TC would have a lot of chassis strengthening, as Jim mentioned.  You might find that the rear wheel arches are widened inside the car and strengthened.  You won't find any of this info. in a book, you have to look at a real Abarth to see how it was done.

And one of the most important clues - if this is supposed to be a genuine "nurburgring" model from around 62-63, then the doors should be suicide type, not the later rear opening ones.  A few photos of the rear of the car would help, in particular the engine.  I am pretty sure that all 600 sedan based Abarths have an Abarth number stamped into the left sidewall of the engine compartment.  The early Abarths had the ID plate on the horizontal muffler shroud, not on the vertical firewall..

I echo what J.S. has said.  There are MANY, MANY fakes out there!!  This car just screams  FAKE!  I've yet to see even a good replica, either in photos, or in person.  Because it is so hard to learn what is correct on an Abarth, most people simply don't know how to fake one correctly.  You've got to do your homework.  Buy, borrow or steal every book on Abarths you can find, and look at all the Abarths you can find in person, and educate yourself.  My humble opinon is that is not a genuine Abarth.  BTW, I have never heard of the "Stradale" designation you mention for these cars.  It does not appear in any book I have ever read.

Gil
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: donaldyk on November 21, 2007, 08:24:51 pm
Hello,  I had a truly original 850 TC Nurburgring a couple of years ago.  I have plenty of pictures that I can send oyu if you want.  Regards.  Herve
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: zippyfiat on November 21, 2007, 10:39:36 pm
Hello, Herve, can you please post some photos here??  That would be really nice.  I am trying to build a replica of an early 850TC (nurburgring) and am always looking for new clues on how to do things correctly.

Vincent, is there anything you can share with us as to how to reliably determine authenticity?

Thanks,
Gil
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Pantdino on November 22, 2007, 07:07:01 am
Englebert Moell said there were about 2500 1000TCs and about the same number of 850TC Corsas that were made in the factory.
I saw a lot of cars on my last trip that were stamped with ABARTH in the sheet metal on the left side of the engine bay, but it seems to me that doesn't mean much either. It could have been done by anyone at any time.

The "Stradale" name is just what people call the cars that were not Corsa. That name was not used by the factory.

The numbers stamped on the Abarth tag on this particular car seem fishy to me.  It looks like one number was messed up and restamped. Would you let a car leave YOUR factory like that?  If the engine number matches the number on the 850 motor, you know for certain it's fake.

Jim
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: ChrisD on November 22, 2007, 07:58:41 am
Might be a small detaleor nothing at all, but the color of the nose and front fenders of the car is diferent than the rest of the cars base color. Maybe this is also a clue that the front fenders were cut off and widened by a previus owner that after doing the job didn't manage to mach the color. If it was factoy made it would be the same.
That or an accident that damaged the whole front of the car.....either one is something that you have to think of, I belive
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: grant gauld on November 22, 2007, 11:12:11 am
What a great subject !!   
  Arnoud,can i suggest that the only real way to confirm the cars authenticy is via its history ?.It is posible to buy 'Factory Abarth' papers genuine and copies,i was offered some genuine papers in Italy a few weeks ago for 2,000 euros.I even know some people have the exact lettering to stamp the engine wall.There are some really good fakes out there,with every correct detail AND papers.Then,you MUST talk to as many previous owners as possible.
 GMR,Berni Motori,Aumueller and TCM all have years of experience,they all can tell a fake if you ask them.

 Having a replica is no loss.But incorrectly paying for one is.

 Typical to Italian car manufacturing in the period,there nearly allways seems to an exception to the rule.When you think you have all the facts,another oddity pops up.
 I know a French buyer bought a nice fake recently.The car had everything correct except......the absolute wrong style of opening doors.Just a small item to overlook ?
 I then have to say,in my opinion there is 'no easy way to identify a genuine TC'.
 Dont less this discourage you though,as the real joy is in the driving.
 Good luck.Grant
 
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: viotti600 on November 22, 2007, 01:41:10 pm
Arnoud,
   A few observations from the info & photos you've provided...

 Let's start with the chassis number 2101923 - this corresponds to around a 1966/67 model year of Fiat 600D chassis, so at least we have a starting point for the year/vintage of the car itself. Did the owner state what year the car is? (Earlier or later year?) ASK & compare.

 You've stated that the car supposedly began as an original 850TC Stradale. Yes, the Stradale WAS an actual version, known as Tipo 214D, also called an 850TC Normale. As the title suggests, this was a "street" car and as such it had standard chrome bumpers front & rear & no front-mounted radiator or shroud (usually used the rear radiator & the 750-style auxiliary radiator under the floor of the car just ahead of the transmission). It had standard-position windshield wipers, not the vertical Corsa type. The 850TC Stradale was basically a 750 Berlina with an improved engine, different emblems & a nicer gauge unit. LOL. ;)

 If this car actually was an 850TC Stradale, its' uniqueness & value is now pretty much lost amongst all of the modifications done to the car by its previous owners. I'm not sure when the last 850TC Stradale's were made, as I seem to recall that the 1000's tended to get more focus from Abarth during the late 1960's...

 I'm guessing that the seller's reference to a "1000TC specification upgrade" might explain the "Group 5" type front radiator/shroud & bodykit/flared fenders, as these are period-correct mods for that type of car. An 850TC Stradale would have none of these items. The front fenders & nose panel are likely a different color beige due to poor paint matching after the bodywork was done when flaring the front fenders.

 The front grille & Abarth shield emblem are appropriate for a 750/850TC. The 1000's had a thin-profile type grille (similar to on the Record Monza) and the Abarth shield had a red/white/green horizontally-striped top instead of solid dark blue (this emblem type was generally used on the 1-liter+ cars). A late-model car might use the emblem with the late stylized type of scorpion on it, though (not sure what year that scorpion style debutted). The thin "whiskers" on each side of the grille are the 1000TC type, 850TC's normally used the thick/tapered 750 type whiskers. So you have the grille/emblem from one car type paired with the whiskers from another car type - a mismatch. The Abarth "swallow" chrome hood emblem & trim strip are gone (missing?).

 The tach & speedo gauges are obviously wrong (as you have stated), as is the Fiat 850/124 red warning light shown on the gauge housing at upper/left (should be a 600 style light like those on the dash to the left of the gauge unit). The dashboard "nurburgring" script doesn't belong on this car at all, and the small Abarth shield is usually located to the right of the 850TC logo, not the left. The steering wheel & horn button are correct. The parcel shelf below the dashboard appears to be missing.

 The Abarth ID tag on the firewall looks to be positioned directly where the standard Fiat 600 factory ID tag is often located - rather odd? I'm used to this Abarth tag being located on the sheetmetal covering the muffler, but that might just be applicable to the earlier 750 cars that I tend to focus on.

 Things just don't add up as for the "real" factor... I would definitely take a closer look at the engine & transmission before considering making ANY deal for the car. And have the seller find that history file! ;)

-JS.
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: viotti600 on November 22, 2007, 02:28:18 pm
Well, I have a few thoughts.  I am by no means an expert, so anyone can feel free to correct me. The rear view mirror is from a later 600, and can't be from circa 1962.

 Looks like a standard 600 mirror with the little light on the top, like in the 1100's. Many later cars had a black rectangular mirror like in the Fiat 850 Sedan.

...the wheels look to be period correct Campagnolo, except the width might be wrong.

 These are Bertone Campagnolo wheels, applicable to the Bertone-designed Fiat X1/9 & 850 Spider, also VERY popular on racing Fiat 128's back in the day. Circa early 1970's, a little late to be period-correct on a 600D chassis car, 5.5"-6" widths, but they DO look nice on Corsa'd 600's! :)

And one of the most important clues - if this is supposed to be a genuine "nurburgring" model from around 62-63, then the doors should be suicide type, not the later rear opening ones.

Yep. You could also use the chassis VIN to find the year of the car (which also rules out the "nurburgring" bit).

BTW, I have never heard of the "Stradale" designation you mention for these cars.  It does not appear in any book I have ever read.

 The Stradale was the basic-model 850TC. Look in your Berni Motori parts catalog, in the "Model Type Suffix Table - Single Cam" area. Go down the left side in the "Engine Suffix" column until you get to "214D", then move to the right 2 boxes to the "Model Type" column, where it says "850 TC Normale". That's the Stradale. ;)

-JS.
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: abarth595 on November 22, 2007, 03:40:27 pm
I must say that I am absolutely overwhelmed with the amount help you have all extended me!  I am very encouraged by the fact that I have a pannel of experts behind me on this one.  My mind is still spinning a little from the high of looking at this car, and I am hoping that against all odds that this could be a real car.  However, I think we have reached a resounding agreement that the authenticity of this car is "very questionable".  I have a few remaining questions for you:

Alex- you had mentioned the color of the car before I posted the pictures, do you have any personal experience with the car that could help us?

On the same note, what do you all think of the color.  The reference books all show a flat grey rather than a beige color as one of the standard colors for the Abarth derivatives of the 600.  Is this color perhaps a standard Fiat 600D option?  And if the car had in fact been a 850TC normale would the same rules apply (choose colors from an Abarth chart rather than Fiat)?

Herve- your generous offer to share pictures of the original 850TC would be very much appreciated.  The owner insists that it is a 850TC and the opportunity for us to all do a side by side detailed comparison as JS and Gil had kindly done would excellent.  Bearing in mind that the car was "reportedly" later converted with 1000TC features, the smaller details would need to match. 

ChrisD- your comment on the nose was very observant.  When inspecting the car the seller said the nose had been recently redone to take care of some rot (rust).  They were not able to match the colors well, but it seems to me to add a little to the 'war horse' appeal.  I shouldn't be so naive though; this could be a sign for some front end damage - which could perhaps explain why some of the trim details on the front violate the specification rules that JS again pointed out(?)

Grant- I thank you for shedding your story on the Abarth documentation and Chassis tag fraud!  It is cold comfort for all of us to think that one could go as far as replicating the paper work on a car.  It really leaves us with not much of a leg to stand on, as we have also established that it would be very easy to source the parts that are present on these cars.

My last question for you is does anyone have a good idea of what one should pay for a good replica and what prices a real 850 TC can command.  My ultimate vision is to be on the starting grid of the Coppa Mille/Vernasca Silver Flag and as we can all surely agree it would not matter if the question in the headline ("Real or Replica") were answered, just the driving experience and the entry ticket would do :-)

With many thanks again to you all and best regards,

Arnoud
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: DaveA on November 22, 2007, 09:23:29 pm
I guess a question I have is why such bad pictures ?

If the guy really wanted to sell it you think he would get it out so you could inspect it correctly
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on November 23, 2007, 05:21:54 am
Arnoud,

I think the panel has pretty much concluded that this is NOT a real car, at least from the chassis and trim items.  As it is now, it is not an 850TC and from all appearances it is not a 1000TC either.

No one has mentioned the drive train.  If it has anything other than Girling 3 piston brakes (presuming it was upgraded to 1000TC spec) then it surely is not original.  Does it have dropped spindles?  What type of front suspension?  Leaf Spring or independent?  What kind of trailing arms, standard or pendolare?

How about gearbox?  4 speed or 5 speed?  What is the final drive ratio?  If it is 4.88, rest assured it is a clone.

If you get a look at the motor, check out if it has what appears to be an oil filter boss under the exhaust.  If this has a bolt going through it, it is almost surely an 850 or 1000OT block.  What kind of waterpump bolt pattern? etc etc

Having said all of that, if you want to go racing in the Coppa Mille, don't do it with an original car, as accidents do happen.  Ask Reinhold Koster who t-boned a Mini with his REAL TCR.  OUCH !!!  But by all means do go racing, even if it is in a nice replica.  I did it in 2001 and and again in 2004.  May do it again in 2008/2009, as it is a REAL blast and the other competitors are genuinely nice people.

I recently sourced a very nice 1000TC clone for a customer in the USA and paid around 12,000 Euro for it.  I also was able to find another car for Pantdino in Europe as well.  I know of several very nice cars that are currently for sale, including a 850TC replica that is as close to a real one as you are EVER likely to get.  This includes girling brakes, period remote oil filter, proper small radiator, Campy wheels (the correct ones) etc etc.  Send me an email if you might be interested.

The last REAL TCR that sold went a few years ago for over 50,000 Euros.  That means that 1000TCs, should bring around 30-35K Euros, or even more today.  I know of one VERY fast Coppa Mille racer that is for sale for 40,000 Euros, and it is a clone.  Then again it has won its division the last 2-3 years, so it has a history.

It is all about what you get for the buck.  Caveat Emptor.

Good luck,

Paul Vanderheijden
(http://www.scuderiatopolino.com/only the best label.htm)
www.scuderiatopolino.com
info@scuderiatopolino.com

Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: zippyfiat on November 23, 2007, 07:49:04 pm
Here is a scan of an Abarth ID tag in an 850TC.  This is from Peter Vack's book, Abarth Buyer's Guide.  Note how the numbers are stamped on the two lower lines differently.  Another clue that something is amiss?  The tag is  screwed on, not pop-rivetted.  There is also "Abarth 214" and some other numbers stamped directly in the body sheet metal directly above the tag, which is on the horizontal shroud above the exhaust.

I just noticed that the picture of the engine compartment of an 850TC on the preceding page in Peter Vack's book (page 32) , which is the same car as the one that has the above noted ID tag, appears to be of the identical white/yellow 850TC that sold on www.race-cars.com.  If/when you can get their website to work, you can find a few photos of the car in their archive section.  The car is not totally original, but gives you a good idea what an 850TC nurburgring should look like.

Gil
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: zippyfiat on November 24, 2007, 07:00:59 pm
Hi Arnoud, here is the same car that sold on race-cars.com in the US.  (The asking price was $20,000US.)  I thought you might find this interesting?

Gil

Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Alex van de Wetering on November 26, 2007, 10:08:37 pm
Quote
Alex- you had mentioned the color of the car before I posted the pictures, do you have any personal experience with the car that could help us?

Hi Arnoud. Sorry, I don't have any experience with the car in question. I remembered it from the advert on race-cars.com and had a look in their archive to find the chassis number.

To add to the discussion, I don't think there is an easy way to say if a TC is an original Abarth, A TC built with an Abarth kit or a full replica. If you have a chassis number or the old licence plates there are certain techniques to find out more. for instance: You can ask the Fiat centro Storico for the history of your chassis number and find out if it was delivered in Torino from the factory or somewhere else. In case of Torino it COULD have been delivered to Abarth, but you won't know for sure. If the car has racing history in Italy, than you might be able to find old pictures or listings of the car in these events, searching by the licence plates. John De Boer in the US has a large database of Abarth chassisnumbers, he might have information on the car in question.

In all these cases you are only researching the numbers and not the cars itself and the problem is that the chassisnumbers on a car doesn't always belong to that specific car. This isn't always the work of people with bad intentions in mind; it is not unusual that a car was crashed during racing and the owner decided to refit all the racing parts on another body and to continue the racing season. This could have added to the fact that recently some TC's have come up for sale with 1963 Abarth paperwork and post-65 doors or vice versa, like the one Grant mentioned.

So in other words you should check both the numbers and the technical/mechanical details of the car itself. I can only add to the accurate posts of Jeff Stich and Paul VanderHeyden that there is a distinct difference between a Corsa or a Stradale TC. Most important the Stradale/Normale didn't have the extra strengthening as used in the racing versions. (Not that it stopped people from racing Stradale's anyway). Also not all cars have the numbers stamped in the left side wall of the engine compartment. I believe all Corsa's did, but most Stradale's won't have them.
I agree with Grant that your best hope is for the current owner to find the history. We still don't know if the car is a replica or not, although we do know that the Nurburging badge doesn't belong to the car.

As for prices. Two years ago a genuine 850TC Corsa with history and 1000cc engine sold here in Holland for 18000 Euros. Currently I know someone who is trying to close a deal for a genuine 850TC Corsa with original engine, for somewhere around 30000 Euros.

regards,

Alex van de Wetering



 
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Pantdino on November 27, 2007, 07:01:06 am
Alex,

Do you know the condition of the car being negotiated for about 30,000 Euro?   Does it need total restoration, runs/drives but barely, runs / drives well but needs cosmetic restoration, or everything has already been done?

Jim
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Pantdino on November 27, 2007, 07:03:23 am
Hi Arnoud, here is the same car that sold on race-cars.com in the US.  (The asking price was $20,000US.)  I thought you might find this interesting?

Gil



I believe this car was in the UK when it was on the US site. My guess is that it never sold

Jim
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Alex van de Wetering on November 27, 2007, 11:35:31 am
Quote
Alex,

Do you know the condition of the car being negotiated for about 30,000 Euro?   Does it need total restoration, runs/drives but barely, runs / drives well but needs cosmetic restoration, or everything has already been done?

Jim, The car in question is not one you can drive away immediately, but it doesn't need full restoration either. The bodywork is good and all the hardware is there. The car  hasn't been run for years though, so it will obviously need work on brakes, engine etc. to make it run properly again.

Another 850TC sold last year in Holland. This time a suicide door Stradale 850TC, but postfitted to Corsa specs and fitted with a 982 cc A112 engine. Asking price was 23000 Euro, but I don't know what it sold for. It was ready for action, just like the 18000 one mentioned earlier.

Alex


Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: guy moerenhout on November 28, 2007, 04:55:25 pm
Very simple,iff you like the car and have the mony ,buy it drive it and have fun in your live .Its your car and demo like you told here that you wish to do agreed with a nice car ,iff its a real our a nice remake .You must like it and nobody else
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on December 03, 2007, 02:32:47 pm
Arnoud,

I have an original, authentic 850TC (first registered 1963) for sale.   Please find below the photos of the car, interior and engine compartment.  It currently has an A112 1050cc motor installed, but it comes complete with the complete original motor as well. 

As you can see, it is all steel without any fiberglass extensions.  The front radiator is very small and is tucked up under the front bumper.  Also the engine compartment shows the proper layout of things.  The interior shows the proper knee/leg bolsters, instrumentation (7500 RPM tach) and steering wheel.  ID plate is in proper position. 

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Paul Vanderheijden
Scuderia Topolino
(http://www.scuderiatopolino.com/only the best label.jpg)

(http://www.Scuderiatopolino.com/Hein carsmall.jpg)
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: viotti600 on December 03, 2007, 11:58:21 pm
I have an original, authentic 850TC (first registered 1963) for sale.   Please find below the photos of the car, interior and engine compartment.

  If this is an original 850TC, why does this car have the wrong script/emblems on the front fenders & dash? And 1000-style front fender flares? And why the tall Carello/Fram oil filter unit? Was the owner trying to make it look like a 1000 instead, even though it obviously has the small 850TC front radiator? A rather odd mix of types. ;)

-JS.
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on December 08, 2007, 06:03:06 pm
It was originally an 850 TC, but was updated with certain 1000 parts.  As with most of these cars, you sometimes find them like this, although the owner has preserved all of the original 850TC items for any potential buyer.  Unfortunately, the seller had second thoughts.  I presented him with a full price offer and instead of accepting it, he withdrew the car from sale.  Just the way things work out sometimes.
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: viotti600 on December 08, 2007, 08:55:39 pm
Hmmm...
"I have an original, authentic 850TC (first registered 1963) for sale. "

Then...
Unfortunately, the seller had second thoughts. I presented him with a full price offer and instead of accepting it, he withdrew the car from sale.

So you didn't actually have this car for sale...you only knew of this car being for sale by its' current owner?


Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Pantdino on December 09, 2007, 05:06:54 am
Hmmm...
"I have an original, authentic 850TC (first registered 1963) for sale. "

Then...
Unfortunately, the seller had second thoughts. I presented him with a full price offer and instead of accepting it, he withdrew the car from sale.

So you didn't actually have this car for sale...you only knew of this car being for sale by its' current owner. 




Paul didn't have it for sale in the sense that he was the owner, no.
Because of his contacts in the Abarth world he knows of cars the owner is willing to sell but are not advertised to the general public.  So he "has" cars in the sense that you wouldn't know about it any other way but through him.
I think his expertise is well worth the fee he charges for the transaction.

Jim
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: viotti600 on December 09, 2007, 11:36:41 am
Paul didn't have it for sale in the sense that he was the owner, no. Because of his contacts in the Abarth world he knows of cars the owner is willing to sell but are not advertised to the general public.  So he "has" cars in the sense that you wouldn't know about it any other way but through him. I think his expertise is well worth the fee he charges for the transaction.

  I'm well aware of Paul's involvement with the Abarth cars, parts & various owners/enthusiasts. I'm also well aware of the use of  "contacts" when brokering deals for cars (Abarths or others) not often brought into the public eye, and of course a broker should be paid for their time/knowledge/etc. when conducting a sale!

  There's a difference between an individual selling a car that they own (outright) and a person selling someone else's car for them with the owners' consent (via brokering/consignment). It would appear that neither of these scenarios actually applied in this case? Perhaps I was confused when I read "I have...for sale". Oh, well. Not an issue to me anymore. ;)


Cheers,
 -JS.
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on December 10, 2007, 12:01:39 am
Viotti.

Let me clear it up for you and for anyone whom might wonder in the future.

In all of my dealings, I represent the BUYER, and am thus paid for my services by the buyer.  I do after all spend the time and effort to bring the buyer together with a potential seller.  I have a simple formula.  For cars under 100,000 the charge is $1500.  For cars between 100,000 and 500,000 the charge is $2500.  For cars over 500,000 it is negotiable.

I am presented with a "commission" from a buyer for a particular kind of automobile.  If I am successful in finding what they wish, then I present both parties with an "Offer Contract" to sign.  This stipulates the terms of the offer (Price, downpayment, timing, delivery, warrantees if any, spares etc), and an place for the seller to accept the offer, so that there are no surprizes for either party.  It also has language that allows the buyer to cancel the transaction, should the documentation provided, or the car itself, not prove to be what was advertised, so long as this discovery and the resultant cancellation of offer take place before delivery of the vehicle to the new owner or his authorized representative.  In such occurence, the seller must, by contract, return any deposits.  If the sale proceeds, then I also make the arrangements for shipping the vehicle, although the cost for the actual shipping is borne by the new owner.  For vehicles located overseas this includes arranging containerization, proper export clearances in the country of export, and required import documentation including DOT and EPA clearances for US bound vehicles as may be required.

Yes there are cars for sale on my site.  In almost all cases these are not my cars !!  I place the ads there for clients who wish to sell them.

In the case of the 850TC, this car was brought to my attention by one of my clients.  The owner had placed the car for sale (that is why he had a flyer printed) and was made aware that I had a customer who was interested in purchasing it (In actuality I had 4 different parties that had expressed interest in the car, as it was coming from a VERY reputable collector/owner) and that an official offer was forthcoming.   When that offer was delivered some days later (as the vehicle owner was out of town) he had decided not to sell the car, which is of course his ultimate right.  He did not give a reason why, nor did I think it pertinent to ask why.

In another case I had a client interested in one of the cars on my site.  He paid my expenses to go and view the car in question (and take some 300 photographs) to ascertain to his satisfaction that it was a car that was as advertised.  I provided a multiple page report on my inspection for my client who duly paid for my services.  In the end the two parties remained too far apart monetarily and the transaction was not concluded.

I look forward to being able to assist others, interested in finding that particular car they wish, in the future.

Kind regards,
Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com
(http://www.scuderiatopolino.com/only the best label.jpg)
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: donaldyk on December 11, 2007, 09:05:37 am
Having had the chance to recently work with Paul according to the scheme as outlined above I can only recommend him and stress his extreme efficiency, knowledge about anything Abarth and above all his very high business ethics.
Title: Re: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on December 11, 2007, 04:46:08 pm
Hello Arnould,

I've had the opportunity to sell several 1000TC cars in the last year, both replicas.  The orange and silver one (1000TC replica) and the white one (850TC style) both sold for less than 13,000 Euro.  Both cars had 4 speed gearboxes and 1050 A112 motors.  Frankly, it would not be possible to build a car from scratch for this kind of money, if you count your own time. 

At the moment I am helping a customer negotiate for a TCR automobile.  This of course is a horse of a different color.  These automobiles have commanded much higher prices.  One major collector bought one in the last couple of years for around 50,000 Euros, and the asking price for the one currently being negotiated is higher than this.  As a matter of comparison, a complete TCR motor alone will sell for the better part of 30,000 Euro.

Then again, I have another customer who has a "narrow body" 1000TC replica for sale.  This car has a close ratio 4 speed gearbox and a 1050 motor.  This car has competed in FIA sanctioned events and has an FIA Historic Vehicle Identity Form. The price for this vehicle is very close in price to the ones mentioned above.  It can also be delivered with a 5 speed transmission (for a higher price)  if you should want.  It is located in Europe.

Further to competing in the Coppa Mille or at Vernasca, a large proportion of the Abarth sedan based vehicles are replicas.  When I was at Vernasca in 2006 there was even a 1000TC with a 1300cc Fiat 128 motor competing.  In the Coppa Mille most of the vehicles are replicas and the engines must be OHV Fiat based units.  Of course, depending on the Division that you wish to compete in, the cylinder head configuration will vary.  Coppa Mille Div. 2 requires a single 2 barrel carburetor, where as Div. 4 allows you to use an 8 port head and dual 2-barrel carburetors.  While the racing is "gentlemanly" for the most part (you always get one or two hot-shots and learn to avoid them) it is spirited, BUT accidents do happen.  I can think of at least two authentic Abarths that sustained significant body damage in the last year.  For this reason alone I would consider using a replica is a more realistic alternative.

If you have any additional questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Regards,
Paul Vanderheijden
paul@scuderiatopolino.com
Digital2