abarth squadra storica forum

abarth cars - community => fiat abarth 750 / 850 and TC => Topic started by: ChrisD on July 24, 2004, 05:04:17 pm

Title: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on July 24, 2004, 05:04:17 pm
Hello, I am insterested on istalling a A112 Autobianchi Abarth or a Fiat 127 1000ccm engine on my Fiat 600D.
 Has enyone done this convertion to his car? Any tips you might wanna share?
 I will use the Fiat 600 gearbox, but what cluch disk do I have to use in that case?do I need any convertion to the cluch? What water pump do I have to use? In case I install a front mount radiator do I have to use a second water pump or replace the original 600 with a biger one?
 Please help. :?
Title: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: 1000BC on August 23, 2004, 12:38:23 pm
Use A112 water pump it's enough. Replace fan with electric fan from other car. You don't need a second water pump. You need to connect radiators in serial ( first rear and from that to the front -> engine ).
Clutch there is many variations. I use standard Fiat 600 clutch with harder springs in pressure plate. Works fine up to 60 hp.
If you use bigger clutch need to modify pressure plate and pressure bearing too. For that there is a lot of ways to do like use Fiat 127 flywheel and pressure plate + clutch + modified Fiat 600 pressure bearing with weld a certain thich shim for it.
Title: Cooling and Clutches
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on November 06, 2004, 04:23:43 pm
When fitting a higher compression or larger displacement motor to a 600 chassis, there are a number of options.

1.  Use the A112 pump and an electric fan.
2.  Use an aftermarket pump (PBS) and an electric fan
3.  Use an electric water pump and electric fan.

If you are using an 8 port head with dual webers, then you will likely use the front mounted radiator.  With all of the above options I would recommend using two small electric fans as well.

As far as clutches go, I have used an 850 flywheel (or an aluminum one based on it) and an 850 pressure plate for my race car for over 10 years without any failures at all.  I simply mount a 600 ring gear on it. It does require the adjusting the location of the throw out bearing, but once done this is a reliable option.  This uses a 160mm friction disc and pressure plate.  The A112 pressure plate and flywheel did not fit the Fiat 600 bellhousing, but I have been told that it will fit in a Seat bellhousing.  Apparently they are slightly different.  The key to clutch longevity is to make sure that the step between the friction surface and the pressure plate mounting surface is maintained.

Hope this helps.  If you would like to read more, check out my site at www.scuderiatopolino.com.  Lots more information and parts.
Title: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on February 08, 2005, 06:55:57 pm
I have found a A112 903cc engine (not Abarth 1039cc) with a turbo installed on it. In order to install it to my Fiat 600 with standard 4 speed gear box, do I need the same convertions you mention on top of this post? I am planing on using Fiat 850 clutch.
 Can a PBS head be installed in this engine or do I need the 1039 block to do that???

 Thanks for the help
Title: Adapting engines
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on February 08, 2005, 07:23:01 pm
Quote from: ChrisD
I have found a A112 903cc engine (not Abarth 1039cc) with a turbo installed on it. In order to install it to my Fiat 600 with standard 4 speed gear box, do I need the same convertions you mention on top of this post? I am planing on using Fiat 850 clutch.
 Can a PBS head be installed in this engine or do I need the 1039 block to do that???

 Thanks for the help


Chris,,

If this engine came from an A112, then it will have the correct rotation.  If it came from a Fiat 850 it will not.  As an A112  front wheel drive engine, it will have to have an input shaft bushing installed.  

As far as the PBS head is concerned, it will fit very nicely on the 903 block.  

When you install the Fiat 850 (160mm diameter) clutch on the 600 flywheel make sure that the guide pins and attachment bolts line up.  Also make ABSOLUTELY sure that the friction surface on the flywheel is between 0.020 and 0.030 inch (0.05-.075mm) higher than the surface where the pressure plate bolts down.  If not, there will not be sufficient friction disc pressure and you will lose the clutch in short order.

Let me know if there is anything else that I can help with.

Regards,

Paul vander Heyden
Title: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on February 10, 2005, 08:07:34 pm
Thanks for your help Paul.

 The engine comes from a A112, so I will not have any trouble with the rotation.

 About the water pump and the starter do I need the same convertions as the A112 Abarth engine that you mentioned before?
Title: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on February 10, 2005, 08:57:48 pm
The 600 water pump will not fit the A112 motor without an adapter plate.  In any case the larger motor (more horsepower) will need additional cooling and my suggestion is to use the 1050 water pump and then install an electric fan on the radiator.  The fan should suck air from in front of the radiator in to the engine compartment, not vice-versa as is with the standard pump driven fan arrangement.

Hope this helps.

Paul
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: alapimba on August 26, 2005, 07:10:37 pm
PAUL:
i'm restauring my fiat 600 d and that think you mentioned about a fan sucking air to the engine compartment is what i was thinking in do.
Can you tell me a little better how to do that? what i need to buy in order to make it working?
I have the standart 767cc engine.. maybe i'll upgrade to a fiat 127 or a112 later.
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: bart on September 07, 2005, 11:07:09 am
i have a 1957 fiat 600 which I am about to do the same with. apparently its a straight swap. on the new engine you can run a bigger later styled webber car. more hp and better economy. i am in desperate need of floor panels etc.
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: alapimba on September 07, 2005, 11:18:40 am
it's easy to find floors for fiat 600.
i bought mine easily here in portugal but i also saw them on some sites.
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: guy moerenhout on September 07, 2005, 01:22:54 pm
its always good  to say form with country your are ,mayby someone near you can help you
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: alapimba on May 16, 2007, 01:03:56 pm

Clutch there is many variations. I use standard Fiat 600 clutch with harder springs in pressure plate. Works fine up to 60 hp.


where the springs came from?

what happend if use the std fiat 600 clutch with bigger engines? it breaks?
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on May 19, 2007, 06:44:25 pm
 I tried to find a Fiat 850 flywheel so that I could use the 850 cluch system but I was not succes in my country. I have heard of people using Seat-Fiat 127 160mm cluch system. Do they use only the preasure plate and friction disk in the 600 flywheel or the hole 127 flywheel-preasure plate etc ???

I need to replace my cluch soon, so any help will be wellcome.

Chris
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: zippyfiat on May 21, 2007, 12:49:23 am
Hi Chris, you can simply use your stock 600 flywheel.  Take it to a machine sho along with an 850 pressure plate and get them to redrill the flywheel for the 850 plate.  New holes need to be drilled for mounting, and the dowel pin needs to be relocated.  You should use an 850 pressure plate that has the "fingers".  You should take a look at Scuderia Topolino's technical article on clutches.  Paul says there is no problem with the reverse direction of an 850 clutch.

Gil
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on May 22, 2007, 05:19:22 pm
Thanks for the info, but I leave that as the last solution. 850 parts are becoming rare in my county so I prefare to use an easier part to find in lockal stores.
 The 127 flywheel has the same diameter with the 600 flywheel? I f yes, I can use that one with it's preasure plate and without any modifications becides the starter teeth exchange from the 600 flywheel. Any one knows or done that before?
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on May 30, 2007, 03:11:56 am
ChrisD

I have never worked with the 127 flywheel, but I suspect that the offset of the flywheel is somewhat like the A112.  If so, then the starter would come in from the engine side, not from the gearbox side (as in the 600).  It may work, it is simply a matter of fitting it all up.  One thing for sure is that you will need to put the 600 starter ring gear on the 127 flywheel.  Compare the two flywheels and you will see how the ring gear is positioned differently. 

If you use the A112 clutch/pressure plate you MAY have a clearance problem unless you are using a SEAT bell housing.  I tried to mount a standard 600 flywheel drilled for an A112 pressure plate (170mm) as an emergency replacement at SPA in 2004, but it hit the inside of the bellhousing.  I KNOW that the Valeo 850 clutch with the 'raised fingers' works well (160mm).

Even though the Fiat 850 clutch was 'manufactured' for a counter-clockwise rotation motor, I prefer to use it as-is on clockwise 600 installations.  Let me explain.  The tensioning straps are there to keep the pressure disc parallel to the flywheel.  Now if we had 500 HP monsters, then I would want to have the straps under TENSION on upshifts.  As we do not have such engines, our engines are likely to create much larger torque moments on DOWNSHIFTS.  Hence, I would want the straps to be under tension on DOWNSHIFTS.

Secondly, there is a small (0.020 inch/.5mm) step up from the pressure plate mounting surface to the friction surface.  It is mandatory that this step be there, as this is what controls the amount of preload on the the pressure plate when it is bolted in place. 

I have NEVER lost a clutch.  None of my customers that have followed the above advice have ever lost a clutch that I am aware of.  What can I say, it works.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on May 30, 2007, 07:49:07 am
Thank for all info Paul.

Seems that I will use the 850 cluch adapted in the 600 flywheel. Finding a 850 flywheel in my coutry(Greece) even in junkyards is dificult. Only the VALEO brand works good without problems? Becides of drilling new holes in the 600 flywhel to much the cluch is there any other thing need to be done?

ChrisD
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on May 30, 2007, 01:27:57 pm
Chris,

Since you have the assembly apart, I would suggest that you lighten the flywheel 'some'.  The same machine shop that drills the flywheel for the new bolt pattern should be able to do this.  Only take weight out of the periphery of the flywheel, try to leave the area around the center hub alone, as that is where the strength is needed.  Likewise, the A112 (or 903) used 8 x 1.25mm flywheel bolts and a 10mm 'dowel'.  You will have to make sure that the 600 flywheel you are using is set up for both.  Do not leave out the dowel, as you do not want to rely on the bolts alone for location of the flywheel once it is balanced.

Again, check to make sure that there is a step up of .5mm from the outer ring, where the pressure plate mounts, to the friction surface area.  Make sure the friction surface area is clean and flat. 

If the ring gear is some what worn, and you want to replace it, now is the time.  I have this in stock if you cannot find locally (29 Euro).

Finally, after all of this has been done, you should get it balanced with the crankshaft from the new motor.  Have them balance the crankshaft first, then with the flywheel, and finally with the pressure plate attached.  In this way you can change the pressure plate later without having to rebalance the other assemblies.  The better the balance job, the smoother the motor.

Hope this helps and good luck.

Regards,

Paul
Scuderia Topolino
USA
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on May 30, 2007, 02:05:22 pm
The ring gear is ok. But since you mentioned it I have noticed that some times when the engine is hot the starter motor has trouble turnig the enigne. I thought it was because my battery is old and didn't had the power, but wondering in the internet I read of other people having the same problem only when the  engine is hot. Is it really common on the 600s when using bigger engines?
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on May 30, 2007, 03:03:19 pm
Chris,

The Fiat 600 Starter motor is notorious for not working well when hot.  Certainly if the starter is old, and you have a engine with higher compression and perhaps more ignition advance, this may push the starter beyond what it is capable of handling.  Certainly those of us who race the Fiat 600 have had this experience.

Along with a friend we developed an alternative.  This is to use a starter from a 1980, Subaru along with a special adapter that I manufacture.  These starters are 'reduction drive' starters and will even start a large V8 motor.  Many of my customers around the world are using them successfully.  I can supply just the adapter, or a complete starter with adapter.  I have also recently developed a complete new starter for the Fiat 850 (same problem when hot).  If you look on the "SPECIALS" page on my website you will find more information.

Regards,

Paul
www.scuderiatopolino.com
USA
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on May 31, 2007, 11:49:37 am
I still have the starter motor of the A112 engine. Could I use this one somehow?
The Subaru starter motor you mention come from witch Subaru model?I can find it here, I just need a parn number or the car it was used to.

Thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: alapimba on June 04, 2007, 12:12:40 am
Paul what is simpler for a machine shop?
drill a fiat 600 flywheel to hold a fiat 850 pressure plate or give them a fiat 850 flywheel and ask to put the king gear from a fiat 600 flywheel?
The result for the car will be the same, right?
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on June 04, 2007, 12:40:45 am
Alapimba,

If you have both flywheels, remove the dowels and lay them both down on a flat surface, with the friction surface laying down.  Now do the following

1.  Measure the height of the center hub where the flywheel mounts on the crankshaft.  This will give you the distance that the friction surface is from the mounting surface of the crankshaft.  If this is the same Hoorah.   If it is not, you know what you have to compensate for.
2.  Note the relative positions of the starter ring gears.  If it looks like you can put the ring gear on the 850 flywheel and have it come out in the right location (even if you have to spot weld it in place because it is not up against a retaining lip.  Put a spot weld in 6 locations, even spaced and you will not have a balance probem)  Hoorah.  Note:  You may have to machine off the retaining lip on the 850 flywheel as the ring gear presses on from the opposite direction as the 600.

If you are able to use the 850 flywheel, then you do not have to drill a hole for the dowel. 

That is really all there is to it to compare them.

Regards,

Paul Vanderheijden

Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: alapimba on June 05, 2007, 12:46:08 am
Hi

At the moment i only have a 600 flywheel (in the stock engine in my car and i didn't wanted to remove it or do any modifications on it, once i place another engine in the car i want to remove this with with his flywheel and clutch and just store it).
I have the 903cc flywheel from the engine i bought (fiat 127) but it seems it wont be of any use, right?
What should i look for? an extra fiat 600 flywheel or a 850flywheel and a fiat 600 flywheel to remove the king gear?

Btw..this is the flywheel i have at home from the 903cc fiat 127 engine:
(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6960/p1040370cb5.jpg)

Best Regards.
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: alapimba on June 14, 2007, 08:56:49 pm
in spain they seems to have this clutchs for the later seat 600. isn't this enought for our engines?
The pressure plate seems similar to the ones from the 850
(http://fotos.subefotos.com/8cb3a89c1c1a2fe43871ef2e049fba7eo.jpg)
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on June 20, 2007, 02:44:17 am
Alapimba,

I cannot answer your question, as I have never worked with the Seat clutch.  I am afraid you are on your own on this one.

Regards,

Paul Vanderheijden
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: guy moerenhout on June 20, 2007, 08:31:43 am
I have use this already and works well.You have also a easy shifting(softer pedal)
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: grant gauld on June 20, 2007, 07:17:12 pm
Chilli con carne also works !!   
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: grant gauld on June 21, 2007, 09:44:24 am
Another nice advantage in using the high profile finger pressure plate (seat and Scuderia Topolino) is that it will mate up to the the throw out bearing of a 600D.When swapping Renault/Fiat/Lancia/127/A112/850/600 etc clutch kits people notice the direction of operation most times but occasionally over look the bearing shape and depth on adapter.
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on June 21, 2007, 12:54:33 pm
Alapimba,

While I have not personally used the Seat type clutch, I can make some observations.

1.  The curved finger arrangement is very similar to the Valeo brand Fiat 850 clutch, so it should work the same.
2.  The raised curved fingers work well with the standard Fiat release bearing.
3.  The "pressure ring" retaining mechanism is different to the 850 type and MAY cause some interference problems when used with a FIAT bellhousing.  The Seat bell housing is slightly larger internally.  So if you have a Seat transmission, then there should be no problem at all.  Note:  The larger bellhousing is not the only thing that is different about the Seat transaxle.  Seat also use much finer teeth on their gears, so they are not interchangeable with those from a Fiat transaxle.
4.  I cannot see how the pressure ring is "strapped" on the photograph.  These are small metal straps that are designed to keep the pressure ring flat when it engages against the friction disc/flywheel, ensuring full contact.  WIth the Fiat 850 the straps are installed in the opposite direction to most other pressure plates, because the engine rotates in the opposite direction.  Most people recommend to reverse the straps on the Fiat 850 type, but I DO NOT.  As small Fiat motors do not make large horsepower, the need to have the straps in tension under "up-shifts" is not a major requirement.  However, for "down-shifts" exactly the opposite is true.  On a down-shift you are going from a low torque situation to a much higher torque situation in a lower gear, PARTICULARLY if you are using the engine to slow down the car.  Therefore the clutch would last MUCH longer if the straps provide good pressure ring control on down-shifts. 

If this were a high horsepower application, where there is a high-torque environment in both up-shift and down-shift directions, then I would strap the pressure plate so that the straps are under tension in both directions.  After all, if you look at the arrangement in a Tilton multi-plate competition clutch, this is exactly what has been done.

In a perfect world, you would use the brakes to slow a car down, then put the gearbox in the desired gear and accelerate.  In this way each of the parts of a car are performing the job they were designed to do.  After all brakes can slow a car MUCH faster than downshifting through a gearbox.  Not only that, they are much more efficient at absorbing the heat generated by the braking action.  At a recent racing event I observed another by-product of incorrect downshifting, when a competitor down shifter from 5th to 4th gear when approaching a chicane.  The engine RPMs went up and suddenly there were large pieces of metal coming from the rear of the car.  Can anyone guess what happened?  Give us your answer !!

Best regards,

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on July 12, 2007, 08:50:16 am
Anyone knows the serial number of the Valeo Fiat 850 cluch kit? It seems they left it out of the 2007 catalogues and can't find it anywhere.

Or if anyone knows if the Fiat 127 160mm cluch kit can be used for the same purpose in a Fiat 600???
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: guy moerenhout on July 12, 2007, 09:30:11 am
you can see for a 126 bis ,its also OK
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on July 12, 2007, 09:33:26 am
It can handle the 1050 engine with 90hp I plan to built with no problems?

I just need something easy to find in my country in case I need to change it in the future again
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: guy moerenhout on July 12, 2007, 09:37:00 am
go for the 170 model ,the will go better
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on July 12, 2007, 09:48:32 am
You mean the Fiat 127 170mm cluch? Will it fit in the 600 bellhousing?
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: guy moerenhout on July 12, 2007, 09:52:55 am
,no I main the 126 bis .The 127 and A112 fitt also in but you need another starter like the one from VW our Subaru with a adapterplate .Otherwise you have always problems
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on July 12, 2007, 09:59:13 am
Tanks Guy.
So I can only use the Fiat 850 and Fiat 126 bis with no problems. Do you have any of these for sale? The 850 would be prefared
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on July 12, 2007, 11:51:32 am
I managed to find this press plate. The owner claims that it is for Fiat 850. Could this work? Brand is unknown

Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on July 17, 2007, 11:11:06 am
If I combine this press plate with 127 160mm friction disk will it work or the 127 and 850 diska have diferent thickness?
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on July 17, 2007, 03:53:27 pm
Chris,

This pressure plate "should" work fine with a 160mm Fiat 127 disc.  The discs are all pretty much the same thickness.  You may find that there is a lot of travel in the clutch pedal.  If so, you may have to put a small spacer behind the release bearing and the holder to space it out some. 

Good luck.

Paul
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: ChrisD on July 18, 2007, 07:58:11 am
Thanks for the help Paul. I was looking for Valeo press plate just for that reason, not to use the spacer....but it should work ok too. Witch bearing is best to use? 600, 850 or 127?
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on July 18, 2007, 03:10:40 pm
The one that has a "flat" friction surface to match the pressure ring on the 850 pressure plate.

Regards,

Paul
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: batman on January 06, 2008, 07:01:30 pm
Hi, Im from England and new to all this stuff so youll have to exuse me.   Paul, you mentioned the 600 modified electric cooling fan sucking instead of blowing , but how does the heater work.      My Middle Barton prepared 1958 600 1000 replica works the normal way, it also has a front mounted alloy radiator under the front bumber.    Thanks   Dave.
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on January 06, 2008, 08:00:10 pm
Dave,

The "reverse air flow" mod is usually only done on race cars, as it basically disables the heater.  Given, that you have a front radiator, I cannot see that you would have any overheating problems.   Make sure that you are running a thermostat though !!.

Regards,
Paul Vanderheijden
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: batman on January 06, 2008, 08:27:38 pm
Paul . where does the thermostat fit,I have a  modified 75bhp Fiat 903 engine  fitted in my old 600, ------thinking about it , It dosent have a thermostat!!
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on January 20, 2008, 04:16:18 pm
The Thermostat or "flow restrictor plate" would go in the hose coming from the top of the head (that goes to the top tank of the radiator or the expansion tank).

Regards,

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Pantdino on January 20, 2008, 07:16:59 pm
Alapimba,  At a recent racing event I observed another by-product of incorrect downshifting, when a competitor down shifter from 5th to 4th gear when approaching a chicane.  The engine RPMs went up and suddenly there were large pieces of metal coming from the rear of the car.  Can anyone guess what happened?  Give us your answer !!

Best regards,

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com

I didn't see it happen, but I assume you are referring to the clutch in Hr. Kleber's car exploding at the Nürburgring in June.
I was wondering why and how that happened--thanks for enlightening me.
Usually one thinks of crankshafts or rods breaking.

Jim Oddie
Title: Re: Fiat 600 engine replacement
Post by: Paul vander Heyden on January 20, 2008, 07:50:38 pm
Jim,

Having spoken with Klaus in the garage after the race, I may have misstated the situation slightly.  It was a flywheel that flew apart.  It turned out to be a standard Fiat flywheel that had been lightened by machining away some of the mass.  As these flywheels are cast, there is a reason why they are designed with a particular thickness, namely for strength. 

Yes on the downshift from 5th to 4th at the chicane on the back straight it did come apart.  Apparently the change in enertia was simply too much for it.  Large chunks of metal could be seen coming out from under the car.  Apparently it destroyed the flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, transmission imput shaft, crankshaft, block, bellhousing, and at least one rim and tire.  Not to mention the shrapnel holes in the chassis.  Thank heavens that it was behind the driver !!  Apparently the head looked OK.

The irony was that Klaus actually had one of my aluminum flywheels that he had purchased some time before, but he had not gotton around to installing it.

BTW - His son rebuilt the motor and gearbox for the next race and at that race he dropped an exhaust valve.  Maybe the head was not OK, but we will never know.

So much for the autopsy.
Digital2