Author Topic: 1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?  (Read 9113 times)

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Offline viotti600

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1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?
« on: September 15, 2010, 02:30:32 AM »
 I have a small wager with a friend concerning the authenticity of a "1000 TCR" car currently listed on eBay.

http://search.ebay.com/220669430371


 I think the car is likely a fake (replica), my friend follows the seller's claim that it is an original 1968 Fiat Abarth 1000TCR Group 5 car. Can anyone here confirm either viewpoint? (Discuss!)

 There are several things I see in the eBay photos that put up a red (or yellow) flag to me. They are:

1. As far as I know, the green/red paint scheme was never an Abarth factory "Werks" color scheme (seller claims it is). The red side stripes are shaped wrong, too. A true Group 5 car would have the number "5" in the front/center square of the painted checkerboard roof pattern (just above the windshield).
2. Emblem on front grille is incorrect, should have the horizontal tri-color top (red/white/green, not solid blue) which was used on 1-liter+ cars.
3. Front "whiskers" on each side of the front grille are standard Fiat 600, which the TCR did not use (TCR had longer/thinner whiskers that weren't a stock Fiat part).
4. Front hood straps are in the wrong location & are mounted upside-down (!).
5. Car is missing the vertical/tandem windshield wipers assembly.
6. Campagnolo wheels are incorrect sizes for a 1968 Gr. 5 car (used narrower 6" Campagnolo wheels of similar design, same size front/rear).
7. Rear fender flares are the wrong size; should be the smaller-size flares not the real big ones as seen on the car.
8. Rear decklid props are not the 3-leg type Abarth used.
9. Trio of Abarth/Jaeger dashboard gauges are missing.
10. Oil pressure gauge & housing in center of dash are not authentic type.
11. Steering wheel looks incorrect? (bolt-on center ring?)
12. Vertical knee braces are missing from drivers door & center floor tunnel.
13. Rear starter motor/transmission cover is of different design.
14. Fram/Carello vertical oil filter unit is missing from passenger side of engine bay (though it was optional on race cars).
15. Was the horizontal rear-exit type exhaust system used on the 1968 Gr. 5 cars? (I thought it was straight-pipe stinger type?)
16. Seller claims the car has front dual-wishbone & rear tubular "Pendolare" type suspension...but no photos???
17. Seller notes that the the Radiale head boosted the car to 112HP @8400rpm, but that spec is for 1970-on cars, not 1968 (earlier version had 85-108HP @ 8400rpm depending on state of tune).
18. Seller claims this is an ex-Barry Ward car. If I recall correctly, Barry Ward's car was a 1000 Corsa, not a TCR. A small photo I have of Barry's car shows it looking similar- but not identical- to this car being sold.
19. MAJOR ISSUE: This car does not have a TCR engine! That's an A112/127 type engine block (spin-on oil filter on left side) with a TCR head on it! (Also incorrect type alternator & oil vapor collector).

Any comments?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 08:11:49 AM by viotti600 »
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline zippyfiat

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Re: 1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2010, 05:34:21 AM »
I agree Jeff, this car screams fake all over.  I don't see anything other than the head that jumps out and says yep, that's an Abarth.  I agree with everything you said.  I would be willing to bet real money the car isn't real.

There is someone near me that has a 68 Berlina Corsa that I have seen a number of times.  It has all of the right stuff on it and it makes one drool to see it in person.  The ebay car looks like a wannabe Abarth enthusiast modified a stock 600 in comparison.

Haven't spent time studying this, but a quick summary of things I see: 

The rear fender flares should definitely be the early smaller version.  The front flares are wrong and are from a 70 and later model.  The front hood straps are upside down.  The rad. shroud looks wrong.  It isn't fitted correctly, the holes on each side are wrong, and the mesh grille (or whatever is on it) is wrong.  The entire dash is a joke.  The Carello remote oil filter assembly should be where the stock rad. is, but the engine photos aren't the greatest.  The block mounted oil breather tower, "trident" and catch tank aren't there.  The wheels look wrong.  The exhaust is definitely wrong for a '68.  Seats are wrong.  I think the rear inner wheel wells are supposed to be factory modified (widened), but these look like stock 600 ones?  The clutch, brake and gas pedals have cheapo aftermarket add-on alloy pads (I have a set I want to get rid of).  Fispa fuel press. regulator/filter is missing as is the coolant expansion tank/filler.  The rear deck lid props are not attached in the correct location and the modification to clear the exhaust is wrong.  The Abarth stamping in the engine compartment somehow looks incorrect, but I could be wrong.  The exhaust does not look quite the same as ones in a couple of books I looked at and looks more like a replica.  The rear engine support strengthening plate *might* be correct but the photos don't show it clearly.  Modern aeroquip lines are wrong.

I suspect that this is a restoration gone awry.  Someone may have purchased a basket case and screwed up the work.  Why do people insist on installing the late style rear fender bulges on early cars that NEVER had them?  I hate that....

Gil Nicholls

Offline viotti600

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Re: 1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2010, 06:32:10 AM »
 This same car is shown on the Scuderia Topolino gallery page, 11th photo down on the left side at http://www.scuderiatopolino.com/gallery.php


A 1968 1000TCR Gr. 5 car should look like this:

http://www.bernimotori.com/abarth_1000_tcr_en.html ;)
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline guy moerenhout

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Re: 1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2010, 12:01:43 PM »
I think I will change price for my remake.
______abarth  gmr-team ______
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Offline ChrisD

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Re: 1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 11:37:20 AM »
I must agree with Gil and the rest of you. The car seems to be a good replica that could fool someone if the owner had given a little more attention to small detales that make the diference.
Just to add something, looking at the pictures I noticed that the top mounts of the dampers - coilovers are diferent than the stock 600 ones so the seller might actually tell the truth about the car having pendolare rear arms and front indipended suspention. However...no pics of that or maybe some undercar pics or even pics from the brakes.

By the way, the 5speed gearbox had this layout of gears? I mean R on the top left and 1st bottom left???
Fiat 600 Abarth

Offline viotti600

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Re: 1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 08:26:58 PM »
Just to add something, looking at the pictures I noticed that the top mounts of the dampers - coilovers are diferent than the stock 600 ones so the seller might actually tell the truth about the car having pendolare rear arms and front indipended suspention.

Yes, I noticed that the rear shock towers have been raised, which is common to do on lowered race cars.

By the way, the 5speed gearbox had this layout of gears? I mean R on the top left and 1st bottom left???

  I don't know the shift pattern of the 5-speed Abarth gearbox, but the shift pattern shown on the dash is the same as a 5-speed Porsche gearbox. This is a common transmission replacement for racing (with Webster gears), but was not an Abarth mod of the TCR gearbox.

  I had emailed the eBay seller asking about the non-original engine, as well as many of the non-TCR items noted in my previous post above. The answer I received was this:

 "High, Sounds like there is a lot to discuss. If you are seriously looking to buy the car depending on some additional information please feel free to give a call."

That doesn't sound very convincing... :-|

  I notice that the seller chose to NOT post my questions in the "Questions and answers about this item" section at the bottom of the auction page, instead only showing the fluffy (and questionable) "review" of the car by someone else.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 09:28:41 PM by viotti600 »
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline slim4936

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Re: 1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2010, 01:22:02 AM »
Looks like alot of negative camber on the rear for the "pendalore"rear end doesn't it?
I'm guessing Paul Vander may know something about this car. He would have perhaps sold some parts to make it?

Offline zippyfiat

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Re: 1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 05:23:27 PM »
For someone who wants to get $125K for the car, the photos leave a LOT to be desired.  Only one Q&A posted so far??  140 bids to date!  (most are from same bidder). 

A few more things I noticed while sipping my morning coffee:

That's definitely NOT a 600, even an 850 transmission or starter in there.  I don't know Porsche stuff, so assume Jeff is correct on this.  The camber is definitely too much on the rear which lends more credence to the theory that the suspension is not Abarth.

The rear raised shock supports are correct.  The car seems to sit too high.  The stance just doesn't look right.  The rear 3-legged engine lid props look homemade (ugh).  The side mirrors are wrong.  Door metal window trim is painted black.  Locking strip missing from around rear windows.  Rear colored Abarth emblem on deck lid is wrong.  Amber front turn signal lenses are wrong.  Seems to have late/TCR swaybars.  Battery in rear seat area is wrong as are those blue hoses and the custom black cover.  Something sin't right with the transaxle inspection cover/opening in front of the crossmember.  The carb inlet horms are wrong.  Modern fuel cell and the filler cap doesn't sit correctly in the hood opening.

I am of the opinion that the car in question is an original Abarth that started out as a 1000 Corsa.  There isn't much left of the original car except for maybe the chassis/body and radiale head.  Maybe some idiot stripped and sold off most of the genuine original Abarth parts?

Gil Nicholls

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: 1000TCR on eBay - Real or fake?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2010, 02:48:29 PM »
Hello all,

I agree with all that has been said regarding this car.  However, I did do some intensive background on this car for a client when it came up for sale with Bonhams.  At the time of the auction the vehicle was owned by Mr. Michael Almalfitano (Porsche collector) who unexpectedly passed.

"The earliest history of the green TCR of Mr. Amalfitano sees it being raced by Toine Hezemans in Holland.  (The original sales/shipping documents from Abarth I have located here in the USA).  This would  have been in the years prior to 1968, so the current large fenders etc. are not appropriate. 
 
Around this time (1968) It was returned to the factory for updating to TCR specification.  This was not an unusual occurrence, and I would not suggest that this, in and of itself, is a problem.  All the 1 litre cars were all marked ABARTH 210 *XXXX* (The asteriks were actuall slylized stars), and I have never seen one that had the letter suffix (G) added to the 210 to indicate that is actually started life as a TCR and not a 1000TC.   I think it is important to note that there were many 850TC and 1000TC cars that were updated to TCR form, both by the facgtory and by individuals. 

From what I was able to find out, it appears the car was  sold to  Dick Van Staalduinen in Holland circa 1970.  There is a record of him competing in this car Zandvoort Trophy Race in 1970, but the car did not finish the race. 
 
The car then passed into the hands of Hans Kok of Holland for a short period, before being sold to Ron Verzijlbergen in Holland.  Mr. Verzijlbergen then owned/raced the car for some 17 years, in Holland and he is well known in the Abarth community, now racing an Abarth 1000TC in FIA Historic Races.  I have spoken with Ron extensively about this car.  Ron confirmed that the car went back to Abarth for updates several times in the time that he owned it.
 
He retired from active racing in around 1989 and the car was then sold to Mr. Barry Ward of Atlanta, Georgia in the USA. By the time the car was acquired by Mr. Ward it had been back to the factory, on a yearly basis, to have the latest batch of improvement implemented.  This included the independent front suspension, "Pendolare" rear suspension, Abarth 5 speed gearbox and of course the TCR motor.  It would appear that at some point in time the original AH block was replaced with an A112A1000 (58HP) block. Mr. Ward kept the car for several years, before selling it to Mr. Michael Amalfitano.
 
Mr. Amalfitano undertook a "complete restoration" of the car after acquiring it. The quality of this restoration, done by his Porsche mechanics, is certainly questionable, as noted by Michael and others.  There any MANY things about the car that are not correct, or simply missing.

I do not know whom currently owns the car, but he paid around $52,000 USD (including commission) for it at the Bonhams auction.    The currently advertised price is completely out of line.  I would imagine that a well restored car (to 1968 specification), with small rear fenders, AH block, 5 speed, independant front suspension and pendolare rear suspension would be valued at around $90,000USD.  Given the traceable racing history of this car, it would probably be a worthwhile endeavor, if it could be bought for a reasonable price.

Regards,

Paul