Author Topic: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina  (Read 18470 times)

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Offline viotti600

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INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« on: April 16, 2008, 07:51:56 AM »
 I am looking for the following information about the early Abarth 750 Berlina (Sedan/Saloon), maybe you know at least a few answers to these questions?


1. What was the full trim package used on actual Abarth-built 750 Berlina cars? Was it different than on cars transformed via the available aftermarket 750 "kits"? Were the grille, whiskers, etc. from the Abarth-built cars stamped with a unique ID number on the back, like on the coachbuilt 750 cars?

2. What year(s)/model(s) used the small "derivazione" and "ABARTH 750" script emblems mounted on the front of the large/center "whiskers" on either side of the front grille?

3. Change in scorpion body design on the front/dash shield emblems; series 1 detailed scorpion vs. series 2 modified scorpion (I'm not concerned with the later series 3 type) - what year(s) did this occur?

4. Exact cut-off year for the two-tone vs. solid color paint scheme (I have conflicting info on it being either 1956 or 1957). Did the side stripe begin at the fender-mounted turn lamp? If so, front or rear end of the lamp housing? (need good original photos!)

5. Was the small front leafspring center torsion bar found on the 850TC also used on the early 750 Berlina models? When was it developed?

6. Were the noses of the bumperless 750 Berlina Mille Miglia cars hammered out (forward) in the center in order to improve aerodynamics?

7. What were the specific years/applications for the 2 different small (about 60mm Ø) Jaeger tachometer styles used on the 750 Berlina? (black face/white text 6800rpm tach vs. black/tan face/white text 8500rpm tach)

8. Was a temp GAUGE ever installed vs. using only the 600-style red warning light? If so, was it a separate gauge mounted on/under the dash, or was it the optional 600 Veglia gauge that fits into the 600 speedo housing?

9. Were side-bolster bars/braces ever used on the front seats (like on the Zagato 750 racing seat)?

10. Exactly which final drive ratios were used on the Berlina...same as on the alloy-bodied Abarth cars? 8/39, 9/41 &/or???

11. Did the 750 Berlina use the black/silver aluminum Abarth ID tag fastened to the muffler shroud sheetmetal (between the muffler hanger-bracket bolt heads) like on the coachbuilt Zagato/Allemano/Vignale cars? If so, was the Berlina's stamped TIPO number on this plate noted as "750/119" or "750/119A"? (or "750/119B" for the Mille Miglia version?) What was the difference between the 119 car & the 119A car? Was the letter "A" used to denote the sunroof-top Trasformabile (Convertible) from the full-hardtop Berlina (Sedan)? Or was there even any special notation for the sunroof variant at all? Was there ever a Mille Miglia version of the Trasformabile? Denoted 119A/B?

12. Did the 750 Berlina have the stamped letters/numbers on the muffler shroud sheetmetal (above the afore-mentioned ID tag) like on the 850TC cars? Was it stamped with the word "ABARTH" & the ENGINE type number (219 or 219A or 219B), with the Fiat chassis number stamped below it?

13. Did the 750 engine blocks have any stamped ID numbers/letters on them like on the OT1000 blocks? (the few 750 engine blocks I've seen just had the regular Fiat-stamped engine type/serial numbers) I know the crankshafts are all stamped with the Abarth type/year/etc..

14. Was the 850TC-type body panel engine mount sheetmetal bracing mod also used on the earlier 750 Berlina?

15. Was the round, alloy ABARTH-stamped air cleaner unit ever officially offered for the Abarth 750 (instead of the big black canister air cleaner unit)? Or did folks just use the alloy unit made for the Fiat 1100 because they shared the same Weber 32IMPE carb?


 It's difficult to find good info on the early 750 Berlina like what's available for most of the other Abarth models. Most of the books I have seem to just skim right over this car, with maybe a brief mention &/or 1-2 small blurry photos (or they show the car waaaayyyy in the background of some other Abarth car they're mentioning). Quite frustrating. :(


Cheers,
 -JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline trevor

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2008, 09:51:23 AM »
JS,
Unable to  help with the questions/answers, but if you do not have a copy of the Japanese CAR magazine Memories coloured reprint article on a specific 750 derivazione berlina ( telaio 236845), I can email you a copy.
I am unable to read Japanese so am unaware of print content of article. Subject vehicle has black 6800 small tacho, temperature gauge in speedo pod ,150kph scale etc
Cheers   Trevor

Offline viotti600

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2008, 09:16:59 PM »
Trevor,
  I'd love to have a copy of that article, thanks! I might even be able to translate some of the text via a friend of mine (Japanese). Any info gained is always a step ahead with these cars. Telaio 236845 would be a 1956 model - curious as to how it has a 150kph speedo?

Is the car in this article the same as the one shown below?

Cheers,
 -Jeff.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline trevor

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2008, 03:02:09 AM »
Jeff,
Yes it is the same car:    3 wipers,    same  2 stickers on windscreen;   two tone steel wheels etc. Will get to work with my scanner -  be a few hours by time I send the 9 pages. After you get it let me know if you want larger copies of individual photos, some of which are but 2" x 1.75" as printed in the article.
Cheers   Trevor

Offline viotti600

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2008, 03:26:39 AM »
Jeff,
Yes it is the same car: 3 wipers, same 2 stickers on windscreen; two tone steel wheels etc.

 Nice. I can't recall where I got that photo from - some Vintage Rally site I visited a while back just happened to have it.

  Will get to work with my scanner -  be a few hours by time I send the 9 pages. After you get it let me know if you want larger copies of individual photos, some of which are but 2" x 1.75" as printed in the article.
Cheers   Trevor

  After you scan it, is there any chance you could post it on a separate online photo host instead of emailing it to me? (just email me the links instead?). I'm on dial-up access, so things like this often take FOREVER to download!

  I'd love to have larger prints of ANY photos of the early 750 Sedans - nothing too huge, 800x600 res is plenty big enough. ;)

-JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline trevor

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2008, 04:30:33 AM »
Hi Jeff,

Saw this after emailing reduced and full size copies. Will look for a photo host later today.

Cheers   Trevor

Offline viotti600

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2008, 06:06:33 AM »
Trevor,
  Don't bother with the photo-host thing, all came out perfect via email. Great photos! What year/issue number of CAR Magazine was this in? I may try to backorder a copy. ;)

  Nice early car! This car is rather interesting...it appears authentic, but there are a few items that seem odd to me. Perhaps some items were missing & were simply replaced with whatever was available at the time the car was restored, & they figured nobody would know the difference - I don't know. ???

  Thanks to the larger pics you just sent, I now know that the speedo unit in this car is more than likely from a later model! (and is exactly what I had already planned to do for my car if I can't find an original Abarth 140kmh speedo faceplate)

 Funny...they have the wrong script emblem on the dashboard (the one they have on the dash is what goes on each fender - ironically the one my car's missing on one side). The dash script emblem should read "fiat derivazione 750". This was a standard item even in the "Derivazione" kits.

  I'm curious if the 1000 Miglia flag emblems on the fenders are original? I know on the coachbuilt cars, these badges were to signify that this car has either of the "Mille Miglia" type 150/151 factory engine builds in it. I suppose the same could be true on the Berlina's using these engines.

  Also wondering if the Abarth ID tag on this muffler shroud is stamped correctly? Just "TIPO 100"? That doesn't sound right compared to the other 750 cars (coachbuilt). Sounds like somebody just stamped it like what it reads on the Fiat VIN tag, LOL. (According to the chart in the Berni Motori catalogs, the Abarth designation of "TIPO 100" corresponds to the Fiat 850-based 1000 OTR Radiale). I haven't found any info on what the 750 Berlina's Abarth ID tag was stamped as...I figured something like TIPO 750/119 or something?

 The tach holder is homemade. The dash parcel tray is 600d, isn't it? That's obviously a later 850TC alloy sump. The 145/80/12 Pirelli's are a nice touch! This is a really neat car, glad to have found more detailed photos on it rather than just the one photo I had of it. THANKS!!! ;)

I think I'll just sit here for a few hours & drool over the photos some more...LOL. :)

MMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................


-JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline Pantdino

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2008, 07:29:23 AM »
JS,

You seem to know a lot about the early cars. Can you tell us anything about this very early car in the video I uploaded onto youtube?

The early car appears at about 1 min 40 sec into the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VBWmWETVVA

Jim

Offline viotti600

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2008, 11:14:51 AM »
You seem to know a lot about the early cars.

Actually, I don't know a whole lot about the early cars. That's why I'm asking so many questions! :)

Can you tell us anything about this very early car in the video I uploaded onto youtube? The early car appears at about 1 min 40 sec into the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VBWmWETVVA

 Really hard to tell much about the car from a short blurry video clip like that...though I can offer some observations.

1. It is an early car (1955-56) notable by the slider windows & the early Topolino-style seats/upholstery (which I really like, especially the plastic map pockets at the front edges of the doors - very hard to find in good shape!). The 2-tone Abarth paint job on this car is wrong, or I should say "incomplete"; the roof should be painted red like the stripes on the hood & the sides of the car.

2. Not sure where the little "Elaborata" fender emblem is from or why it's there. Perhaps this is an early Fiat 600 with a few items added from an Abarth 750 "kit" available back then (as noted in that advertisement posted on the windshield) - like the front grille/whiskers & hood ornament? Hence the 750 "elaboration" term...seems I've read that term elsewhere before.

3. The tach shown isn't the Jaeger type usually used by Abarth, the needle orientation is different, and the tach location looked a tad offset to the left from others I've seen (might just be the video angle). The video was too jumpy & out of focus for me to be able to read the speedo rating accurately, though I did see it had a temp gauge installed and the text read ACQUA in that area (usually reads OLIO with an oil level warning light). Same for the emblems on the right side of the dash...too hard to see, though the outline/shape/shadows looked too big anyway to be the usual 750 ones. Maybe some other emblem was put there by the owner of the car?

4. The early Abarth 750 cars did use the stock Fiat 600 steering wheel, but had an Abarth horn button identical to the one used on the Zagato/Allemano 750 & the 850TC. This car looked to maybe have the Abarth horn button, or maybe a plain black stock Fiat 600 horn button. The light reflection was right in the center of it the whole time, making it hard to tell.

5. I'm not sure, but I think I could make out the image of a 7-vent steel wheel on the left/front for maybe a half-second?

 I couldn't see any more of the car to know what else may be there. It took way too long to download that clip for me (I'm on dial-up service), so I'm not about to do that again! LOL.

Thanks for the view, though!

Cheers,
  -JS.



Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline trevor

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2008, 12:56:41 PM »
Hi Jeff,
Glad the article arrived OK.

The approximately 240 page booklet of Car magazine size and format is a compiloation of articles on Abarth from a number of earlier issues. The compilation is dated 28 August 2001 and is titled "Car Magazive Memories ABARTH".    ISBN4-87366-740-2             C9453     Yen 2286E           I got my copy at  Anthony Berni's shop in Maleo, Italy  in July 2004, if memory serves me right about the date. Anthony had a number of copies then for sale. I have no idea re his current stock.

Other articles are on  1000 Bialbero,  AS 2000 Corsa,  FA OT1300 coupe,   Colucci and Avidano interview,  world meeting 1991,  850TC,  TCR,  850TC Nurburgring,  OT1000 berlina,   Lancia Rally,  A112,   1000TC,   OT2000 coupe,  OT2000 berlina,  1000SP,  Record Monza ba,  AS 1300,  Double Bubble,  356B,  124 CSA, 131 Rally, and 037;   all to Car Magazines superb quality of photography and presentation
Cheers    Trevor

Offline viotti600

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A few answers...
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2008, 08:57:14 PM »
A few answers to my own questions, for anyone else wondering...
 
Q-1. Evidence I've found indicates that the front grille, whiskers, etc. on 750 Berlina cars were not stamped with a unique ID number on the back like on the other alloy-bodied 750 cars.
 
Q-3. From what I've found so far, the scorpion design change on the large front grille badge & the small dashboard badge appears to have taken place around 1960. One 1958 & two 1959 Sedans I've come across still had the early scorpion design on both badges, all three cars were USA version type.
 
Q-4. The two-tone color paint scheme was most likely used only on the 1956 (& maybe early 1957?) cars, with later cars reverting to one solid paint color. 
 
SIDENOTE: From what I've found, the Abarth 210A (produced early 1956) was the first 600-based Abarth car. This would mean that there was no 1955 Abarth 750 Berlina (as many folks believe), only 1956-on.
 
Q-9. The 8/39 final drive ratio was used on most 750 Berlina cars, with 9/41 probably being optional on later "Series 2" cars.
 
Q-10. The 750 Berlina did not use the black/silver aluminum Abarth ID tag fastened to the muffler shroud sheetmetal (between the muffler hanger-bracket bolt heads). These tags came into use on the later Record Monza & 850TC series cars.
 
Q-11. The 750 Berlina did not have the stamped letters/numbers on the muffler shroud sheetmetal (above the afore-mentioned ID tag) like on the 850TC cars.
 
I'd still like to hear any answers to the other questions posted earlier...anyone?
 

Cheers,
-JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline naegeli

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2009, 07:40:25 PM »
hello all,

can anyone  tell me right away where this engine that  i have in my garage comes from ?


Offline evannice

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2009, 08:55:30 PM »
http://www.bernimotori.com/abarth_monoalbero_en.html

Hi Naegeli, looks like an 850 TC from this list.

Offline naegeli

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2009, 09:07:41 PM »
cool, have not been on the berni site for a while...and why is there  a BA  prior to the 217 D...?

any idea here?

this is the engine that was in my 1000 record monza bialbero that lost its engine many years a
go.

peter

Offline viotti600

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Re: INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2009, 09:54:54 PM »
...and why is there  a BA  prior to the 217 D...? any idea here?

  Look again at your crankshaft (not at the photo), it should read "ABA" there, not "BA". The "ABA" designates "ABARTH", the "214D" is the 850TC Stradale variant, and "1579" is the crankshaft's serial number.

  By the way, how is your engine-inquiry post related to the "INFO WANTED: Abarth 750 Berlina" that this thread was discussing? ???
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 10:03:41 PM by viotti600 »
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA