Topic: Replica or Real? Abarth 850TC

[DaveA]

I guess a question I have is why such bad pictures ?

If the guy really wanted to sell it you think he would get it out so you could inspect it correctly

[Paul vander Heyden]

Arnoud,

I think the panel has pretty much concluded that this is NOT a real car, at least from the chassis and trim items.  As it is now, it is not an 850TC and from all appearances it is not a 1000TC either.

No one has mentioned the drive train.  If it has anything other than Girling 3 piston brakes (presuming it was upgraded to 1000TC spec) then it surely is not original.  Does it have dropped spindles?  What type of front suspension?  Leaf Spring or independent?  What kind of trailing arms, standard or pendolare?

How about gearbox?  4 speed or 5 speed?  What is the final drive ratio?  If it is 4.88, rest assured it is a clone.

If you get a look at the motor, check out if it has what appears to be an oil filter boss under the exhaust.  If this has a bolt going through it, it is almost surely an 850 or 1000OT block.  What kind of waterpump bolt pattern? etc etc

Having said all of that, if you want to go racing in the Coppa Mille, don't do it with an original car, as accidents do happen.  Ask Reinhold Koster who t-boned a Mini with his REAL TCR.  OUCH !!!  But by all means do go racing, even if it is in a nice replica.  I did it in 2001 and and again in 2004.  May do it again in 2008/2009, as it is a REAL blast and the other competitors are genuinely nice people.

I recently sourced a very nice 1000TC clone for a customer in the USA and paid around 12,000 Euro for it.  I also was able to find another car for Pantdino in Europe as well.  I know of several very nice cars that are currently for sale, including a 850TC replica that is as close to a real one as you are EVER likely to get.  This includes girling brakes, period remote oil filter, proper small radiator, Campy wheels (the correct ones) etc etc.  Send me an email if you might be interested.

The last REAL TCR that sold went a few years ago for over 50,000 Euros.  That means that 1000TCs, should bring around 30-35K Euros, or even more today.  I know of one VERY fast Coppa Mille racer that is for sale for 40,000 Euros, and it is a clone.  Then again it has won its division the last 2-3 years, so it has a history.

It is all about what you get for the buck.  Caveat Emptor.

Good luck,

Paul Vanderheijden

www.scuderiatopolino.com
info@scuderiatopolino.com

[zippyfiat]

Here is a scan of an Abarth ID tag in an 850TC.  This is from Peter Vack's book, Abarth Buyer's Guide.  Note how the numbers are stamped on the two lower lines differently.  Another clue that something is amiss?  The tag is  screwed on, not pop-rivetted.  There is also "Abarth 214" and some other numbers stamped directly in the body sheet metal directly above the tag, which is on the horizontal shroud above the exhaust.

I just noticed that the picture of the engine compartment of an 850TC on the preceding page in Peter Vack's book (page 32) , which is the same car as the one that has the above noted ID tag, appears to be of the identical white/yellow 850TC that sold on www.race-cars.com.  If/when you can get their website to work, you can find a few photos of the car in their archive section.  The car is not totally original, but gives you a good idea what an 850TC nurburgring should look like.

Gil

[zippyfiat]

Hi Arnoud, here is the same car that sold on race-cars.com in the US.  (The asking price was $20,000US.)  I thought you might find this interesting?

Gil

[Alex van de Wetering]

Alex- you had mentioned the color of the car before I posted the pictures, do you have any personal experience with the car that could help us?

Hi Arnoud. Sorry, I don't have any experience with the car in question. I remembered it from the advert on race-cars.com and had a look in their archive to find the chassis number.

To add to the discussion, I don't think there is an easy way to say if a TC is an original Abarth, A TC built with an Abarth kit or a full replica. If you have a chassis number or the old licence plates there are certain techniques to find out more. for instance: You can ask the Fiat centro Storico for the history of your chassis number and find out if it was delivered in Torino from the factory or somewhere else. In case of Torino it COULD have been delivered to Abarth, but you won't know for sure. If the car has racing history in Italy, than you might be able to find old pictures or listings of the car in these events, searching by the licence plates. John De Boer in the US has a large database of Abarth chassisnumbers, he might have information on the car in question.

In all these cases you are only researching the numbers and not the cars itself and the problem is that the chassisnumbers on a car doesn't always belong to that specific car. This isn't always the work of people with bad intentions in mind; it is not unusual that a car was crashed during racing and the owner decided to refit all the racing parts on another body and to continue the racing season. This could have added to the fact that recently some TC's have come up for sale with 1963 Abarth paperwork and post-65 doors or vice versa, like the one Grant mentioned.

So in other words you should check both the numbers and the technical/mechanical details of the car itself. I can only add to the accurate posts of Jeff Stich and Paul VanderHeyden that there is a distinct difference between a Corsa or a Stradale TC. Most important the Stradale/Normale didn't have the extra strengthening as used in the racing versions. (Not that it stopped people from racing Stradale's anyway). Also not all cars have the numbers stamped in the left side wall of the engine compartment. I believe all Corsa's did, but most Stradale's won't have them.
I agree with Grant that your best hope is for the current owner to find the history. We still don't know if the car is a replica or not, although we do know that the Nurburging badge doesn't belong to the car.

As for prices. Two years ago a genuine 850TC Corsa with history and 1000cc engine sold here in Holland for 18000 Euros. Currently I know someone who is trying to close a deal for a genuine 850TC Corsa with original engine, for somewhere around 30000 Euros.

regards,

Alex van de Wetering



 

[Pantdino]

Alex,

Do you know the condition of the car being negotiated for about 30,000 Euro?   Does it need total restoration, runs/drives but barely, runs / drives well but needs cosmetic restoration, or everything has already been done?

Jim

[Pantdino]

Hi Arnoud, here is the same car that sold on race-cars.com in the US.  (The asking price was $20,000US.)  I thought you might find this interesting?

Gil

I believe this car was in the UK when it was on the US site. My guess is that it never sold

Jim

[Alex van de Wetering]

Alex,

Do you know the condition of the car being negotiated for about 30,000 Euro?   Does it need total restoration, runs/drives but barely, runs / drives well but needs cosmetic restoration, or everything has already been done?

Jim, The car in question is not one you can drive away immediately, but it doesn't need full restoration either. The bodywork is good and all the hardware is there. The car  hasn't been run for years though, so it will obviously need work on brakes, engine etc. to make it run properly again.

Another 850TC sold last year in Holland. This time a suicide door Stradale 850TC, but postfitted to Corsa specs and fitted with a 982 cc A112 engine. Asking price was 23000 Euro, but I don't know what it sold for. It was ready for action, just like the 18000 one mentioned earlier.

Alex

[guy moerenhout]

Very simple,iff you like the car and have the mony ,buy it drive it and have fun in your live .Its your car and demo like you told here that you wish to do agreed with a nice car ,iff its a real our a nice remake .You must like it and nobody else

[Paul vander Heyden]

Arnoud,

I have an original, authentic 850TC (first registered 1963) for sale.   Please find below the photos of the car, interior and engine compartment.  It currently has an A112 1050cc motor installed, but it comes complete with the complete original motor as well. 

As you can see, it is all steel without any fiberglass extensions.  The front radiator is very small and is tucked up under the front bumper.  Also the engine compartment shows the proper layout of things.  The interior shows the proper knee/leg bolsters, instrumentation (7500 RPM tach) and steering wheel.  ID plate is in proper position. 

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Paul Vanderheijden
Scuderia Topolino

[viotti600]

I have an original, authentic 850TC (first registered 1963) for sale.   Please find below the photos of the car, interior and engine compartment.

  If this is an original 850TC, why does this car have the wrong script/emblems on the front fenders & dash? And 1000-style front fender flares? And why the tall Carello/Fram oil filter unit? Was the owner trying to make it look like a 1000 instead, even though it obviously has the small 850TC front radiator? A rather odd mix of types.

-JS.

[Paul vander Heyden]

It was originally an 850 TC, but was updated with certain 1000 parts.  As with most of these cars, you sometimes find them like this, although the owner has preserved all of the original 850TC items for any potential buyer.  Unfortunately, the seller had second thoughts.  I presented him with a full price offer and instead of accepting it, he withdrew the car from sale.  Just the way things work out sometimes.

[viotti600]

Hmmm...

"I have an original, authentic 850TC (first registered 1963) for sale. "

Then...

Unfortunately, the seller had second thoughts. I presented him with a full price offer and instead of accepting it, he withdrew the car from sale.

So you didn't actually have this car for sale...you only knew of this car being for sale by its' current owner?

[Pantdino]

Hmmm...

"I have an original, authentic 850TC (first registered 1963) for sale. "

Then...

Unfortunately, the seller had second thoughts. I presented him with a full price offer and instead of accepting it, he withdrew the car from sale.

So you didn't actually have this car for sale...you only knew of this car being for sale by its' current owner. 

Paul didn't have it for sale in the sense that he was the owner, no.
Because of his contacts in the Abarth world he knows of cars the owner is willing to sell but are not advertised to the general public.  So he "has" cars in the sense that you wouldn't know about it any other way but through him.
I think his expertise is well worth the fee he charges for the transaction.

Jim

[viotti600]

Paul didn't have it for sale in the sense that he was the owner, no. Because of his contacts in the Abarth world he knows of cars the owner is willing to sell but are not advertised to the general public.  So he "has" cars in the sense that you wouldn't know about it any other way but through him. I think his expertise is well worth the fee he charges for the transaction.

  I'm well aware of Paul's involvement with the Abarth cars, parts & various owners/enthusiasts. I'm also well aware of the use of  "contacts" when brokering deals for cars (Abarths or others) not often brought into the public eye, and of course a broker should be paid for their time/knowledge/etc. when conducting a sale!

  There's a difference between an individual selling a car that they own (outright) and a person selling someone else's car for them with the owners' consent (via brokering/consignment). It would appear that neither of these scenarios actually applied in this case? Perhaps I was confused when I read "I have...for sale". Oh, well. Not an issue to me anymore.


Cheers,
 -JS.