Author Topic: Engine Options  (Read 11545 times)

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Offline -Matt-

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Engine Options
« on: June 03, 2007, 08:22:54 PM »
Hi i'm starting a 1000TCR Replica project

I'm not too concerned about originality of the engine but I want a litre

What oher engines easily go in the 600 and 600 gearbox, other than the A112 (Don't think i'll be able to find one)?

Thanks,

Matt

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 09:03:26 PM »
Hello Matt,

Where are you located?

Paul

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2007, 09:23:05 PM »
Hello again,

There are a whole bunch of options, but for pure authenticity, a TCR would have come with a 982cc motor.  You can get to a 982 in several ways.  I will list them according to the amount of 'pain' involved and the dollars required.

1.  Using a 600D block.  - Bore to 65mm (may require sleeves), line bore for larger crankshaft main bearing and re-notch for bearing tabs, use A112 70HP crankshaft, notch cylinder bores, narrow cam lobes, remove fuel pump lobe from cam, use 850 rods, special pistons, 600 head. (Would be closest to original) 982cc displacement.
2.  Using an 843 block - Bore to 65.5mm, line bore for larger crankshaft main bearing and re-notch for bearing tabs, use a112 70HP crankshaft, notch cylinder bores, narrow cam lobes, remove fuel pump lobe from cam, use A112 camshaft and oil pump drive, 850 rods, special pistons - 996cc displacement
3.  Use a 903 block - Bore to 65.5mm line bore for larger crankshaft main bearing and re-notch for bearing tabs, use A112 70HP crankshaft, notch cylinder bores, narrow cam lobes, remove fuel pump lobe from cam, use A112 camshaft and oil pump drive, use A112 rods, but with special pistons. 996cc displacement.
4.  Use a 903 block  - Same as previous one but use the engine as is, only with the cylinders off-set bored to 67.2mm.  965cc displacement.
5.  Use a 1050 block - Aside from some small things, can be used as is.  1047cc displacement.

These are not all the combinations, and there are other issues such as cooling, gearing, axles etc that you will have to work out.  It is not a matter of things not working, but rather how robust they are.

There are some safety things that are a MUST.

1.  Dual master cylinder.
2.  Replace crush spacer between bearings in rear hubs with solid steel spacer
3.  Rear swing arm limit straps to limit how much positive camber the rear suspension can generate.

I have 4-5 A112 short blocks (used) as well as heads, cranks etc., both in the USA and in Europe that are available.

Good luck,

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com



Offline -Matt-

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2007, 02:16:13 PM »
Hi Paul,

I'm based in the UK, quite close to London

I have two 600D engines, one standard, running and one seized. But I've also got a set of new, slightly larger pistons. For now at least, I'd like to direct most of the dollars towards bodywork, brakes and suspension

Been looking around your site, very good, lots of info. I'm not sure if I can afford/justify the A112 route just yet, but I'm interested in using the 600D block for a while.

How much would shipping be on the dual master cylinder?

Also, what sort of power is possible from the 600D block with a larger carb, cam and 4-2-1 exhaust?

Many Thanks,

Matt

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 04:16:52 PM »
Matt,

You could make a reasonable motor out of the 600D block.  I would do two things if you plan on putting just the next oversize pistons.  These would be to use  A112 connecting rods (much stronger) with after market rod bolts.

I would doubt at around 680-700cc that you should expect much more than 45-50 HP.  It would almost be cheaper to find a Fiat 850 motor and put a new cam and oil pump drive in it.  I can refer you to one of my customers in East Sussex who has a good cache of these motors and who does work on them as well.  Send me an email to paul@scuderiatopolino.com and I will send you his details.

Regards,

Paul

Offline -Matt-

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2007, 08:19:19 PM »
I might stick with the 600D for a while then. But I am interested in having a 850/903 motor on the side to work on

The pistons I have are a .6mm oversize, haven't had chance to look at the workshop manual to work it out exactly but with 767cc as standard I might see near 800cc?

I saw that at the bottom of your parts page Fred Plotkin had alot of stuff for sale, would either of those camshafts be good for tuning this 600D block?

I'll email you when i can about the 850 engines and thanks for your help

Thanks,

Matt

Offline alapimba

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2007, 11:49:24 PM »
Hello

Matt i have a fiat 600 d with the 767cc block with std pistons and i used a head from a fiat uno (has larger valves than the original from the 767cc) and used a weber 32dmtr. The car is bit faster than stock but nothing special.. if i were you i would not spend money on the 767cc block, just find a 903cc and work on it. or a a112 if you can...

Best regards

Roger

Offline DaveA

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2007, 12:11:25 AM »
any pictures of the Fiat Uno head ?

Did you use the  Uno intake manifold ?

will the 600 exhaust fir the UNO head ?

How will the UNO head work on a  903 engine ?

Thanks for the info

Dave

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2007, 12:49:58 AM »
Dave,

The UNO came with two types of motors, a 903 push rod overhead valve motor for the series 1.  Then later it came with SOHC motor.  It is the head from a Series 1 automobile that you need.  If you find the head, take the block as well.  This gives you a complete 903 motor.  The exhaust manifold layout is the same as the 600 head, only the ports and valves in the head are larger.

Hope this clears up the confusion.

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com

Offline DaveA

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2007, 02:29:20 AM »
HI....well since we are talking about UNO engines ,

Which direction do they tiurn ?   600 direction or 850 direction ?

What can you use from them on a 600 ?

Dave

Offline viotti600

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2007, 02:48:24 AM »
I have two 600D engines, one standard, running and one seized. But I've also got a set of new, slightly larger pistons. .... I'm not sure if I can afford/justify the A112 route just yet, but I'm interested in using the 600D block for a while.

 A good "hot street" engine can also be assembled using your new O/S pistons*, your 600D block & the following Fiat 850/A112 components:

1. Fiat 850 843cc crankshaft (stronger, better-balanced than the 600D crank, with same journal sizes).
2. Fiat 850 843cc connecting rods (fitted with stronger/aircraft-style rod bolts as Paul pointed out).
3. Fiat 127 or A112 camshaft.
4. Fiat 850/127 903cc or A112 oil pump.

 The above build will net you a strong, proven-reliable bottom end for relatively low cost, while still retaining the "original look" on the outside. The Weber 30DIC (Fiat 850) or Weber 32DMTR (A112) 2-barrel carbs are good to use for fairly low cost & easy maintenance, yet still give rather decent performance. You can either port the 600D head & use larger valves (recommended), or substitute an 850/127/A112 head altogether (allowing fitment of the 850/A112 thermostat unit). Add the 4-2-1 exhaust and it's a nice little package for a "street" application. =)

 *Fiat 850 64mm-65mm pistons can also be fitted in the 600D block, bringing the displacement of your 600D block up to 850 levels.


Cheers,
-JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline alapimba

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2007, 01:14:06 PM »
the only picture is with everything in place...
i had no problem installing it. this head from a uno is like the head from a fiat 127 i guess. no problem with exhaust. anyway i used an abarth valve cover with his manifold.


But has Paul said.. don't invest your time changing only the head like i did.. change the complete engine.


Offline -Matt-

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2007, 01:41:17 PM »
903cc Uno/Panda engine sounds good!

Does the 600 Abarth valve cover fit the 903cc cylinder head?

What work is needed with the 903cc? Do I need to change the direction of the engine?

Paul, if the 903cc cylinder head ports are larger will the 4-2-1 exhaust manifolds like those on your site, fit?

Thanks,

Matt

Offline alapimba

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2007, 03:37:44 PM »
what you mean with 600 abarth valve cover? mine is from a a112 abarth, don't know if theres any specific for 767cc engines.
if you get a engine from a fiat 127/uno/panda the direction of the engine is the same
the harder part is the clutch and flywheel.. the rest is plug and play basicly. you need a electric fan or a water pump with some modifications to fit on the 903cc block (in spain they use the original fiat 600 pump of the pump from a seat 133)

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Engine Options
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2007, 04:55:16 PM »
Matt,

Only the 903 motors supplied in Fiat 850 cars are reverse rotation.  So any Fiat 127/UNO/Etc, from a front wheel drive car, will turn the correct way.  The exhaust manifolds that I sell are all designed for the larger exhaust port of the 903/1050 motor.  You can use an A112 valve cover/intake manifold on a 903 head no problem. 

As far as the clutch goes, you must either have the 600 flywheel drilled/doweled for an 850 pressure plate, or use an 850 flywheel and reposition the starter ring gear so that it matches the location of the 600 starter.  You might also look at the Fiat 127 flywheel.  Place both the 600 flywheel and the Fiat 127 flywheel "face down" and then measure the height of the center hub.  If they are the same, GREAT.  Now note the postion of the starter ring gear.  You need to put a Fiat 600 ring gear on the Fiat 127 flywheel and make sure that it is in the same relative location.  You cannot use the Fiat 127 starter ring gear, as they have a different number of teeth.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Paul
www.scuderiatoopolino.com