Author Topic: Front suspension  (Read 12753 times)

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Offline Rocky

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Front suspension
« on: May 07, 2007, 11:12:10 AM »
Hi everybody,

my next step in restauration project is to make front suspension with front axle. I have found some pictures on site and I was wondering:

- does anybody knows dimensions of front axle with uniballs? I would like to build one. Here is the pic:

http://www.abarth-gmr.be/new/gallery.php?arh=04_05&idp=7 [nofollow]

Thanks everybody

Offline Rocky

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 10:24:56 AM »
Is it possible that nobody knows anything about it??? I will have to improvise and that takes much more time and money..

Offline guy moerenhout

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 09:22:17 PM »
hallo Rocky ,sometimes you must do it yourself our you must buy it.This was a special one off .You can copy it from forum but you need to make it yourself .Almost all cars are different so make it on a jigg our direct on your car
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Offline Rocky

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 10:32:51 PM »
Guy THANKS A LOT,

I wanted to be sure that I am not doing some things twice :-) ! Could You give any comment on the handling of the car with that kind of susspension and if it is not a problem for you, could you compare variants of susspension???

Thank you very much !!!

Offline guy moerenhout

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 11:05:24 PM »
If you use your car on the road :dont do it  You wish to race Ok .Iff you make it reforce your body on inside to .Its to weak otherwise .
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Offline Rocky

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2007, 11:17:42 PM »
Guy,

Could you help me with the meening: reforce your body on inside???

Cheers!

p.s. your work is amazing. Well done

Offline guy moerenhout

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2007, 11:29:18 PM »
thanks ,you must make the two chassis arms stronger ,also where brakepedals are like in a real abarth corsa .Also make a sort of strut bare from right to left fitting off top shocks (body parts .On the moment the car is stronger on front .Also make a plate(welded ) on the fitting left right behind the triangels
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Offline Rocky

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2007, 08:47:44 PM »
Thank you on advice!!! And could you suggest me coilovers and springs to put on that home-made axle?

Cheers

Offline guy moerenhout

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2007, 10:32:14 AM »
YES
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Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2007, 02:10:05 AM »
HI Rocky,

NO need to re-invent the front suspension.  If you go to www.scuderiatopolino.com,  and look on the parts page, you will find lots of parts for this car.  Under the suspension section is a complete independent suspension arrangement (pressed metal) with unibals.  Also there you will find complete 20 position adjustable coilover shocks.

You can also send an email to info@scuderiatopolino.com if you have any other questions.


Offline Rocky

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2007, 10:13:22 PM »
Thanks Paul ! I will check that.

I don't want anybody to understand me wrong, but my opinion is that I could make my own and that does not cost that much in Serbia. I will consider coilovers for sure, but hardly anything else.

Cheers everybody

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2007, 05:37:26 PM »
Rocky,

I am afraid you have come up against one of the ground rules of free enterprise.  If I spend the time and the money to fully document, prototype and produce an item, it would make little sense to "give away" all of this work.  After all, those of us who make out living from the design and production of parts must make a profit on what we do, or it simply is not worth doing it.

Many of us publish a great deal on the internet about what we do and provide free advice, but giving away design information is probably asking too much.

I can only tell you about a man who went to his mechanic because he had a problem with this car.  He asked the mechanic if he could tell him what was wrong with the car?  Sure his mechanic said, I know what is wrong with your car.  But if you want to know, you will have to pay me $50.  The owner said "Why should I pay you to tell me what is wrong with my car, you have not done anything?".  Yes, I know the mechanic said, but you have to pay me for my knowledge, otherwise if I relll you what is wrong and you can simply go home and fix it your self or have someone else do the job, and I will not make any money.  KNOWLEDGE HAS VA:LUE, and sometimes there is no alternative but to pay for it.  Altermatively, you can spend the time (which is also worth something) to develop your own knowledge.

My policy has always been to provide as much assistance to my customers as I can when they buy my products.

Good luck,

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com



Offline Rocky

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2007, 01:34:16 AM »
Hi Paul,

I realy understand you!!! You have wright. Knowladge costs!!! I my self think like you do and I would like not to spend time making that part, but just to pay it and to set it up.

But please, if you consider that in Serbia I am earning 330 euros/month with my University diploma and costs of leaving are almost like in Austria (I have spent half year there), you will maybe understand me. You all know how the filling is bad when you can not afford something, but try to imagine how it is, when you can not afford hardly anything that is original? AND WE ALL LOVE FIAT 600.

Prices on internet are not high for you guys, who live in EU. With my knowladge and job that I am doing in Serbia, I would earn much much much much more in EU and those prices would be a joke for me.

Sorry if I have wrote something inappropriate, but that is just hard filling from 24 year old man, who adors Fiat 600.

Cheers everybody.

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2007, 04:18:23 PM »
Hello Rocky,

Good luck with your project. 

Regards,

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com

Offline Pantdino

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2007, 04:20:03 AM »
Rocky,

This is the front suspension on the car I should be receiving next week.  The owner told me it was a limited series of 4-5 some friends and racers made for their cars.

Have you considered using the reversed leaf spring you can buy?  Scorpione Abarth Parts in the Netherlands sells one for 185 Euros:
BI 0102     LEAFSPRING     reverse eye     5 cm lower      €       185,00
http://www.scorpioneabarthparts.nl/index2.htm

Jim

Offline Pantdino

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vizza motorsports front axle
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2007, 04:53:31 AM »
Hi again Rocky,

There's also this front suspension from Vizza.    http://www.vizza-motorsport.de/media/produkte/3.jpg
I understand that if you have a lot of time and good metalworking skills but not much money it may make sense to build your own.
Maybe you can use the photo as a guide to design your own parts. 
But you will still have to get springs and shocks.  And be very careful to make the parts and welds strong enough, because if an A-arm breaks when you are going fast it could make for a very bad accident.

Jim


Offline Rocky

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2007, 01:09:45 AM »
Thanks Pantadino, I am realy thankful.

Well I have never seen reverse leaf spring and I am not sure how the car handle with it??? By the way, I can not open first pic.

I realy don't know what to do now... You people have opened to many topics. So now I have few questions:

1) how does reverse leafspring looks like and does it needs coilover with or without spring?
2) if I decide to manufacture my idea, does anybody knows wich coilovers and springs sholud I use?
3) Is it possible to buy only springs that are made for that weight? By the way, wich weight should it support? How much do 2 springs cost?
4) Is it possible to use any other coilovers and to rebuild it?

Thank you everybody, you are realy helping me.

Offline Abarthfan

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2007, 07:30:33 AM »
Hallo Rocky,

leaf spring is shown on www.abarth.nl [nofollow] . It is leaf spring which is similar to original Fiat 600 leaf spring but the eyes on the ends are turned to other side so it makes car lower (about 50mm). It is not necasar to use springs in front of car.
If you would like to make spring by some spring factory. If you show them original Fiat 600 spring (dimensions... and charakteristic) they will know what is possible to make if you want it harder and lower.
And if is possible to rebuilt somethig?... yes everything is possible :o)) ...

and try this sites: www.abarth.cz [nofollow]  - maybe will be hard for you that it is in czech language
and my site: www.ef600.wz.cz [nofollow] ...  maybe something helps you
and: www.scuderiatopolino.com [nofollow]  - there are lots of things and ideas which helps you for shure

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2007, 04:45:38 PM »
Rocky,

There are several companies that market coilover shock absorbers, and the most affordable ones are either AVO or SPAX.  You can order shocks from them complete with springs if required.  For the front of a 600 chassis I would use a 250 lb. (115 kg) spring.  I use a 200mm long spring with a 75mm spacer spring in the front.   For the rear you will need VERY short coilover shocks that have a "pin type" mounting on both ends.  I ended up having these custom made as I could not find anything short enough as a standard product.  Spring rate should be somewhere around 350-380 lb (160-170 Kg).  You can use a longer shock if you raise the top, rear shock mount.  Usually this means welding in a piece of round tube with a top plate with a hole in it for the shock to mount.

The reverse eye leaf spring is an OK modification.  You must be sure that it is done by someone who knows springs.  There is some planning that must be done,  if you are going to do this yourself.  If the idea is to make a track racer, then you want a spring that only has a small "arch".  The bigger the arch, the more camber change that will occur during wheel travel.  You will want to put a transverse link in between the center bolt on the spring and one of the frame rails of the chassis.  What this does is limit how much the center section of the leaf spring (between the two frame rails) can flex.  It effectively makes the leaf spring into two 1/4 elliptical leaf springs and does stiffen the rate of the spring.  It also helps in locating the spring and making sure that it stays centered.  If you use the leaft spring, then you do not need coil springs.  There were several Fiat 600 cars homologated with both a leaf spring and a coilover unit.  In this arrangement the leaf would likely have been used as nothing more than a semi a-arm, and the total of the leaf and coil would have made up the rate of the spring system.

The amount of lowering that takes place will depend on how much you de-arch the leaf spring and the distance you move the eye at the end of the spring.  If the eye is 25mm above the spring blade now and will be 25mm below the spring blade when the reconfiguration is done, then the front will be 50mm lower.  Add to this the amount the spring was de-arched, and you have the total that the car was lowered.  The person doing the de-arching should make sure  that the overall width of the spring does not exceed the width of the standard spring (when fully compressed and flat) by more than 4mm per side, or the track on the car will be off. and the front will have too much negative camber.  Finally, when lowering the car, and using standard shocks in the standard location, it is possible to lower the car so much that there is virtually NO travel left in the shocks.  This can cause very severe handling problems, such as instant oversteer.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Pauyl Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com

Offline Rocky

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2007, 08:46:56 PM »
Hi everybody,

thank you for information about all these things. It realy helps.

@Paul , I have seen here in Serbia that some of the owners put LADA NIVA shoks in the back. This is defenetly true, because I used to have them in the back and I am thinking of purchasing them again. I am not sure weather you had problmes with that, but if I understand you right, you've done some reparation with yours.

Cheers everybody

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2007, 02:10:15 PM »
Rocky

If you go to my website www.scuderiatopolino.com and click on the parts page, go to Item # 8056 and then click on the 'camera" button on the far right. This will give you a detailed photo of the rear shocks.  You can do the same for other items that I have listed there.

It is all a matter of 1) extended length, 2) compressed length 3) total travel 4) available suspension movement.  When preparing a car for racing, as in what I do most, the suspension will be lowered quite a bit.  In this case the available suspension movement, before the trailing arms hit the chassis bump stops will become less and less.  If the compressed length of the shocks is 200mm, and the suspension travel left is 220mm, then the total "working suspension travel" is only 20mm.  It does not matter that the extended length is 350mm for example.  This only means that the wheel can go into 'droop' a long way.

Ideally shock should work in compression between 30-50% of the total working length.  That is why on some cars is is necessary to 'raise' the top mount location so that you do not bottom out the shock, as it may damage the shock absorber, and make sure that you have sufficient shock travel both in compression and rebound.

Regards,

Paul
www.scuderiatopolino.com

Offline Rocky

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2007, 12:24:44 PM »
Hello Abarth people,

Yesterday I have found complete suspension from NSU Prinz (I think Prinz II). Rear and front shocks with springs. It has allmost the sam coilovers like Abarth 1000 TCR. Am I wright? I was thinking of using them with crosmember??? What do you people think, will it work? Is it maybe soft or hard or something else that won't work???

Thanks everybody.

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Front suspension
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2007, 12:46:12 AM »
Rocky,

How did you progress on your front suspension?

Here is a link to a site that describes how to strengthen the front chassis area.

http://users.ntplx.net/~kinukoyc/Pages/tech_pgs/front_susp.html

Regards,

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com