Author Topic: Headlights  (Read 15506 times)

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Offline zippyfiat

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Headlights
« on: March 01, 2007, 02:47:01 PM »
Hi all,

in North America, Fiat 600s came with chrome plated headlight rings, while all of the Euro ones (I believe) had aluminum headlight rings and a smaller diameter headlight.  I have the alloy rings, but want to find all of the other parts to mount them.  Does anyone know where I can find them, and exactly what parts I need?

What is the diameter and type of headlight lamp (sealed beam) that was used?

Thanks,
Gil

Offline Pantdino

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2007, 04:35:30 AM »
This Czech site has diagrams of several headlight varieties, but there are no measurements so it's hard to know which are the small ones.

http://www.f600club.cz/indexe.htm

I suspect the small lights were NOT sealed beam, which is why they weren't legal in the US.
One of these days my car will get shipped to me and I'll be able to take a photo for you.

Offline trevor

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2007, 09:19:58 PM »
Hi Gil,      Try ebay sellers     wapsiria      (  Marco of  CA.MA.RICAMBI),    or hegre,    whose range of bits for 600s are very helpful.     I purchased a set of 2, full 600 small headlight support assemblies-except for the  aluminium trims- from wapsiria about 2 months ago.    Trevor

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2007, 03:46:32 AM »
Hi all,

in North America, Fiat 600s came with chrome plated headlight rings, while all of the Euro ones (I believe) had aluminum headlight rings and a smaller diameter headlight.  I have the alloy rings, but want to find all of the other parts to mount them.  Does anyone know where I can find them, and exactly what parts I need?

What is the diameter and type of headlight lamp (sealed beam) that was used?

Thanks,
Gil

Gil,
 There were 2-3 styles of the smaller headlight rims available for early Euro cars, though from what I've seen only one style seems to be prevalent on the (eBay) market these days. The headlight lamps were not sealed beam units, they were a seperate removeable small bulb plus the actual glass lamp (lense + reflector). If I recall correctly, these are 5" diameter lamps (actually 5.5" diameter if you count the outer edge/lip of the glass). There were similar 7" type lamps also available for Fiat 600d/850/124/128/etc., just to confuse things. haha.

 The later-model 600d parts books show detailed drawings of the headlights & their individual little parts. Unfortunately, in my 1955 600 Sedan parts book, there are no detailed diagrams like these. Instead, the headlights are shown within a wiring-diagram-type schematic as a complete unit with one part number for the whole headlight bucket/rim/lamp assembly (part #865555) & a seperate number for the small bulb (Nr 8621).

 My 1957 parts book is for a type 100.140 (USA) car & shows the larger 7" headlight rim, so that book is useless in our situation. I think what we need to find is an early (1957-59?) parts book for a type 100.100 (European) Fiat 600 Sedan, which should provide a detailed diagram of the parts needed & how they all fit together.


Cheers,
 -Jeff.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2007, 08:22:41 AM »
Gil,

 After looking into the headlights issue a little further, I think you & I may be searching for different items. I'm after the early 600 (1955-56, maybe 1957?) Euro headlights, but I think you might be after the early 600d (1960-6x?) Euro lights (since your car is going to be an early 850tc replica, right?). These were both the smaller 5" type lamp, but used different buckets & outer rims.

 After studying lots of 600/600d/Abarth photos/books/brochures, so far I can see there were 2 different 5" headlight outer rim styles for the early 600 (first alloy, later chrome?), both which used a 2-rim system (an inner rim to hold the headlight lamp itself, then a seperate outer rim for trim/finish purposes). The early 600d cars (still with 5" headlights) had yet another different alloy rim style which appears to use only an outer rim that is made to look wider on the inside (like some that I mistakenly bought earlier - see below). Then of course there's the big 7" headlight adaptation with the big chrome outer rims (the ones with a horizontal screw at the bottom holding the ends of the headlight rim together), which were used on both 600 & 600d models here in the USA & late-model 600d cars worldwide.

  I've found that I have 2 NOS pairs of the early Euro 600d alloy headlight rims, which I bought awhile ago from a European eBay seller who stated they were for a "Series 1" car (it turns out they're for a Series 1 600d, not a Series 1 600 - argh!).

 I just bought a (rather expensive) pair of headlight outer rims from a USA eBay seller who advertised them as for the 600d, but they appear to actually be the Series 1 600 first version (1955-56ish) which I'm looking for. I kinda took a gamble on these after comparing with photos of all 600/600d models, but I'm 90% sure I'm right & the seller is wrong...we'll see when they arrive! ;)

 I also happened across a pair of (what I hope to be) the alloy inner headlight rims for the early 600, like those used on my 1956 Viotti 600. I'm hoping that all I need now is the inner headlight buckets, though these are proving to be quite elusive - mainly because nobody understands exactly what I'm asking for.

I hope your search is proving a little more fruitful than mine??? =)

Cheers,
 -Jeff.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline zippyfiat

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2007, 03:37:48 PM »
Thanks for the info. Jeff!

Yes, I am looking for the ones for circa '60 - '62. I have tried the leads from Trevor, but no luck yet.  Given the many hundreds of thousands of these version of cars that were made, this in turning out to be one of the most difficult parts to find!  Trevor emailed me a diagram of the parts, which I will forward to you.  Maybe they will help.

I hope you find what you are looking for, and if you happen across what I am looking for, please let me know.

Gil

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2007, 11:07:57 AM »
 
I just bought a (rather expensive) pair of headlight outer rims from a USA eBay seller who advertised them as for the 600d, but they appear to actually be the Series 1 600 first version (1955-56ish) which I'm looking for. I kinda took a gamble on these after comparing with photos of all 600/600d models, but I'm 90% sure I'm right & the seller is wrong...we'll see when they arrive! ;)

 I also happened across a pair of (what I hope to be) the alloy inner headlight rims for the early 600, like those used on my 1956 Viotti 600. I'm hoping that all I need now is the inner headlight buckets, though these are proving to be quite elusive - mainly because nobody understands exactly what I'm asking for.

Just an "Update" on this subject...

 The outer rims I mentioned above turned out to indeed be for the Series 1 Fiat 600 (1955-56?), the only difference being that they are chromed metal rather than aluminum like the one original that I had, so I'm all set on that part. ;)

 The Series 1 600 alloy inner rims I mentioned turned out to be non-existent - the seller had already sold them but had forgotten about it. Fortunately, a short while later I found a single inner rim on eBay Germany & purchased it along with an original alloy outer rim (for a spare).

 After doggedly-determined yet patient searching, I finally managed to find a second inner rim (again on eBay) & purchased it, along with a correct Carello headlight reflector base (the silver rear half of the headlight lamp).

 The sole remaining parts I need are the pair of Series 1 600 rear headlight buckets that bolt inside the fenders of the car. I've found one NOS unit available on eBay (again!), & am hoping the seller has a second one for me to complete my headlights set & bring my search for these to a happy conclusion. :)

 Gil, I've come across random offerings for the early 600d headlights you're after, but they're usually ridiculously priced (& we already know who we can buy those from - haha!). I will continue to keep an eye out for what you need, though. ;)

 FYI - the pair of Carello outer lenses that you just bought on eBay are for the early 600 lights like mine, which is why you'll likely find they're dated "1954" or "1955" on the glass. I'm not sure if you can use them for your 600d application, but if not, I'd be interested in them if you decide to get rid of them (as they now fit 2 of my cars).


Ciao for now,
 -JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline bibito

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2007, 02:52:09 PM »
Hello,
I have the the following buckets sitting in my garage , let me know if you need them.......

Cheers,Lubo

Offline viotti600

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HEY, GIL!!! LOOK HERE!!!
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2007, 04:30:54 PM »
Hello,
I have the the following buckets sitting in my garage , let me know if you need them.......

Cheers,Lubo

 Thanks for the offer, but they are not the same buckets as what I'm seeking. HOWEVER, I do believe that these are exactly what Gil needs for his car! ;)

Lubo, do you know what year the car was that your headlight buckets were removed from?


For what it's worth, this is the type of headlight bucket that I need for my car:
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 05:52:19 PM by viotti600 »
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline zippyfiat

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2007, 04:36:25 PM »
Hi J.S., thanks for the update and info.!  I am still somewhat unsure of exactly what parts to get for the 600D setup, so I have been sort of attempting to collect early 600 and 600D parts, and trying to piece together something that will work.  If I knew exactly what 600D parts to get, and where to get them,   I would have the set of early alloy rings and glass available for you...  I am kinda thinking at this point, that I would rather have the somewhat incorrect early 600 alloy setup instead of the later (and larger) US chrome ringed setup.  

I just bought one of the headlight bucket things in one of Trevor's parts diagram (thank you Trevor for the info.!!).   I am not sure if it is for the 600 or 600D and if it is for a Carello or Siem headlight (if there is a difference).  I am also not sure if it replaces the US version headlight bucket which is welded in place and part of the bodywork, or if it is an insert.  As I recall, there is no part number for this on Trevor's diagram/list, which leads me to suspect that it is part of the bodywork.  Not a problem for me though, as I need to replace my headlight buckets anyway as they are rusted out.  

Funny, I cannot even buy something on ebay in Europe without J.S. knowing, hehe!  Do you recall then, the complete headlight assemblies I bought for a Fiat 500/600 in the US?  They fit nicely into the alloy headlight rings for the 600D (which I was able to get on ebay after yours sold to a higher bidder).  But, I am not sure that they are the correct headlight assemblies as per Trevor's diagram.  I think the ones in his diagram show the separate lenses, gasket, reflector, etc.?  Are they perhaps a substitute?  Or do I have the wrong parts?

If anyone out there knows of a source of used 600D parts somewhere on our planet (the correct 600D ones), please let me (and Jeff?) know.  There's gotta be a boneyard for 600s somewhere in Europe.  I need to get the spring clips, screws and other bits and pieces to complete the conversion.  And no, I would rather not pay that "other" source reverse discount prices for something that might not even be the correct parts (or even all of them?).

Geez, what a search!!  I expect to find the Holy Grail and an NOS front plastic grille insert for my 1300/124 long before all of the correct headlight parts..... :(  

Bibito - do you know if your buckets are the early 600 ones, or later 600D ones?  The buckets appear to have an opening at the back that the US ones do not have.  If they are the ones I need, I am interested.  If they are the earlier 600 ones, perhaps J.S.

Gil


Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2007, 05:22:13 PM »
Funny, I cannot even buy something on ebay in Europe without J.S. knowing, hehe!

Well, DUH. Look at the bidder's list on that auction! LOL. ;)

Gil,
  Lubo's headlight buckets are the ones in the small/early 600d parts drawing that you emailed to me on May 14th. It comprises parts #9910736 (inner backing plate rim), #9907674 (spring), #9908457 (adjuster screw) & the large rear bucket (no part # in the diagram). THESE ARE WHAT YOU'RE AFTER.

 If I understand everything I've found out so far, this large headlight bucket fits into the nacelle inside the front fender. You don't need to cut the nacelle out from inside the fender to mount the bucket, just drill a hole (if there already isn't one?) in the back of the nacelle. The bucket has a bolt that protrudes from the back, & this fastens the bucket securely within the nacelle (within the fender). You can see this mounting bolt on the bucket in the background of Lubo's photo. The headlight lamp (proper) fits into the inner backing plate also shown in his photo.

 The more I study it, I don't think there is an inner trim ring + an outer trim ring used to hold the lamp in place on your style lights...it looks like there are 3 clips around the edge of this bucket (about 120º apart) that do that job, and the outer alloy trim ring just fastens onto the outside of these clips, as well. The extra "width" on the inside of your Euro early-600d outer rims makes it look like there's an inner ring when mounted (it's probably supposed to look like the early 600 2-rim type from the front).

 I don't believe the 500 headlights you bought recently are the correct ones, even though the trim rings fit. They looked very different with those thick/ugly chrome rims - yuck.

 The seperate lense-gasket-reflector shown in the other Carello/Siem headlight parts diagram (for my early Euro 600) is what makes up the normal non-sealed beam type headlamp (they come already glued together as one piece). The light socket & clip are used on both versions (600/600d) and are still available from Wil, if you don't have those.

PS - when I post a photo here, how do I get it to just show a thumbnailed version of the photo with a clickable link below it? I see everyone else doing it this way here, but I've just used the "Insert Image" function & type in the URL, & my BIG photo appears with no clickable link. What am I forgetting or doing wrong?

-Jeff.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 06:23:20 PM by viotti600 »
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2007, 05:38:06 PM »

Bibito - do you know if your buckets are the early 600 ones, or later 600D ones?  The buckets appear to have an opening at the back that the US ones do not have.  If they are the ones I need, I am interested.

Oh, forgot to add...the oval-shaped hole in the back/bottom of the bucket is for the wiring to come through.

-JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline evannice

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2007, 05:45:10 PM »
Hi JS,

To attach photos:

Click the "Additional Options..." link, then you will see an "Attach:" box with a "Browse" box next to it, click the "Browse" box to find your photo.  Click "(more attachments)" and a aditional "Browse" boxes will appear one by one.

And I was wondering how you got your photos to show up without the little thumbnail and link!

I'm putting a new head bolt in the beast tomorrow so I should be able to fire it up at last!

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2007, 05:56:54 PM »

To attach photos: Click the "Additional Options..." link, then you will see an "Attach:" box with a "Browse" box next to it, click the "Browse" box to find your photo.  Click "(more attachments)" and a aditional "Browse" boxes will appear one by one.

Aha! Now I see it...I just fixed my photo above, works great! Thanks, Evan!

And I was wondering how you got your photos to show up without the little thumbnail and link!

I was using the 2nd little box on the left just above the large area where you type in your post. At least now people won't have to scroll down as far...haha.

-JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2007, 06:04:01 PM »
Gil,
 Here's a copy of the diagram from the parts book that you sent to me...compare it to Lubo's lights & you'll see they're the same. :)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2007, 06:05:46 PM by viotti600 »
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA