Author Topic: Headlights  (Read 15512 times)

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Offline bibito

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2007, 12:27:56 AM »
Hi,
the buckets came with a 600D 1964, but not on the car, unfortunately no numbers stamped on the back.
Some additional pictures, hope they can help.
Lubo

Offline bibito

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2007, 12:33:32 AM »
BTW, I have a perfect set of those......,if I get the bigger zastava headlights, and they come with the buckets,I can give you the better set since you are after 100% authetisity.
If there are any other specific parts your are after, you just let me know, and  I'll see what I can find for you in Bulgaria.
Cheers,Lubo

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2007, 01:08:27 AM »
BTW, I have a perfect set of those......,if I get the bigger zastava headlights, and they come with the buckets,I can give you the better set since you are after 100% authetisity.
If there are any other specific parts your are after, you just let me know, and  I'll see what I can find for you in Bulgaria.
Cheers,Lubo

 Thanks for the additional photos! Comparing them to the page from the parts manual that Gil sent to me earlier for reference, these are definitely the ones that Gil is looking for to put on his car.

The buckets that I am after are the earlier 600 type...they look similar but are slightly different around the outer edge & in the interior mounting tabs.

Gil, this is the chance you've been waiting for. ;)


-JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline zippyfiat

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2007, 04:13:02 PM »
Hey J.S!!  I am now a lot closer to getting that headlight setup together.  Thanks J.S. and Lubo!  Now I understand that the special bucket is an inner bucket which fits inside the stock 600 one that is part of the body.  The stud on the rear of the inner bucket is what holds it to the outer bucket.  I think I will need a set of the correct headlamps, and will see if the 500/600 ones I have will work in the meantime.  I am not sure how the 600D alloy ring is held in place.  There is no hole on the ring.  I guess as I gather the parts, it will come together.  I think I also need some minor parts like spring clip, socket, etc.

J.S., are you still interested in my early alloy rings and the glass (not received yet).

Gil

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2007, 11:21:02 PM »
Now I understand that the special bucket is an inner bucket which fits inside the stock 600 one that is part of the body.  The stud on the rear of the inner bucket is what holds it to the outer bucket.


Yes, that is correct. And on your type, there's a smaller "sub-bucket" that fits inside the inner bucket (which then fits into the outer bucket on the car already).

 
I think I will need a set of the correct headlamps, and will see if the 500/600 ones I have will work in the meantime.  I am not sure how the 600D alloy ring is held in place.  There is no hole on the ring.  I guess as I gather the parts, it will come together.  I think I also need some minor parts like spring clip, socket, etc.

I think the alloy trim ring is held in place by the 3 tabs on the headlight bucket itself (the smaller sub-bucket part that physically holds the glass lamp). See the photo below for the "tabs" I'm talking about.

Good news - I finally found the proper parts diagram for this type of headlight bucket! It is the exact type that Lubo is offering to you. The small spring-clips are shown at the bottom of the photo below (part #9909068) so at least now we have a part number for you to use! ;)

J.S., are you still interested in my early alloy rings and the glass (not received yet).

I've nailed down the exact trim ring types used on the early 600 lights, and the ones you have don't look like they are for the 600. They look more like the ones used on the early 1950's Fiat 1100 Sedan to me. So no, I'll have to pass on those, thanks.

Fortunately for me, the eBay seller that I just bought the 600 inner rim, reflector dish & rear bucket from also had available a pair of (what I call) the "Series 2 600" outer trim rings, which look similar to the USA 7" rims but about 1/3 the thickness & no screw at the bottom (shallow "eyebrow" type). From what I can tell these were for 1957-59 Euro 600's, & used the same inner rim/bucket/etc. as the earlier type. The seller gave me a very good price which I just could not pass up, so now I have 2 "correct" options on what to use on my car. :) Now the only part I need is just one more bucket...

I'd be interested in the glass after you have everything else you need. ;)


Cheers,
         -JS.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 11:23:20 PM by viotti600 »
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline Pantdino

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What kind of headlight is this?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2007, 03:15:22 AM »
It sounds like you guys have researched the 600 headlight issue thoroughly. 
This is the headlight on the 1000TC replica I just bought. The car is a 1964 600D built for the German market and first sold there in July 1964.   It is a "small headlight" car.
There are no screws or clamps on the bottom of the trim ring.

Inside there are two bulbs, the main one and the small "parking" one, as shown.

I could write the previous owner to see if he changed the lights from what was on the car, but he is on vacation until August 8.

Thanks mucho,

Jim Oddie


Offline zippyfiat

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2007, 05:02:41 PM »
Hi Jim, I have not heard of an extra lamp inside of the early 600 & 600D headlight assemblies before.  I wonder if this was to meet the regulations in the Germany at the time of sale of the car?  You headlight rings almost look like chrome?  Or are they highly polished aluminum?

Gil

Offline Pantdino

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2007, 07:00:06 AM »
Hi, Gil,

Yes, they are chrome. 
Thanks for the info-- yes, it makes sense that it would be a Germany-required feature.

Jim


Offline zippyfiat

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2007, 07:29:53 PM »
I now have most of the headlight parts I am looking for to convert to the 600D Euro style headlight assemblies with the Euro alloy rings.  Here are a couple of photos of the parts so far.  Thanks so much Lubo for the bucket assemblies!  The Carello headlights I have were listed for a Fiat 500 and 600 when I bought them on ebay.  I now see that there are different types of them for the 500s too.  I need the lamps for them.  Where would I get them and is it a Euro type H4 that I would use?  I also need the sockets for the lamps.

I cannot figure out how the headlight rings attach to the bucket.  Is there a ring of some sort that holds it in place?  I do not seen any diagrams that show this.  Would anyone have information on this?

Is there a gasket or grommet required where the wires exit the inner bucket?

Thanks,
Gil

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2007, 09:09:12 PM »
The Carello headlights I have were listed for a Fiat 500 and 600 when I bought them on ebay.  I now see that there are different types of them for the 500s too.  I need the lamps for them.  Where would I get them and is it a Euro type H4 that I would use?  I also need the sockets for the lamps.

 When you say "lamps", do you mean the large glass headlight unit (lense + reflector), or just the small light bulb? From your photos, it looks like the glass lense/reflector unit you have takes a bakelite/plastic socket unit like the early 600. Wil (eBay) had some of these for sale awhile ago, you might check with him. The socket is Fiat part #9901181 in the diagram below.

 If you're using the lamps you've shown, you'll need 45w/40w bulbs of the "bayonet" style (push-in-and-twist type). The base type of the bulb is most important to know - it's known as "BA20d". (see photo). The bulbs can be elusive to find, I got mine a few years ago at a car show vendor booth from a local Cibie lighting supplier (Aardvark Intl.). My original bulb was Osram brand, I think the replacement was a Phillips? I'll try to find the receipt to get the part #.

-JS.

Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2007, 09:37:47 PM »
I cannot figure out how the headlight rings attach to the bucket.  Is there a ring of some sort that holds it in place?  I do not seen any diagrams that show this.  Would anyone have information on this? Is there a gasket or grommet required where the wires exit the inner bucket?

  I think the outer trim rings are held on by small spring-clips that get secured to the edges of the black bucket. I saw these in a few eBay photos from awhile ago. I bought a few of the clips off eBay from Wil awhile back, as supposedly they're also used on the 850 Coupe. I think they're Fiat part #883480? (see pics below)

  As for the grommet/gasket, as far as I know there's only a grommet where the wiring goes through the bottom/rear of the outermost headlight bucket (the part welded to the fender) where the wires exit through to the inside of the wheelwell.

-JS

Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2007, 10:34:51 PM »
Just a follow-up...

The headlight rim clips are these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250154868840

The bulb type is:

12V 45/40W BA20d - Osram 7351, Philips 12748, Stanley 7382, Lucas 396. Narva also makes it, but I don't have the number handy. Usually priced at $13-$27 each.

  I might also have some NOS 5" Carello's that use the later P45t 3-spade base bulb (which I have a bunch of), this allows for more modern H1/H4/halogen/etc. bulb types. I'll have to check in storage. ;)

-JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline zippyfiat

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2007, 07:55:19 PM »
J.S, that is a wack 'o useful information!!!  Thanks.  When I said lamp, I meant the bulb that goes inside the headlight.  I did "The Google" and came up with some sources for the Osram 7351, so getting some wouldn't seem to be a problem.  The other brands look to be a little harder to source (on Google anyway).  Would the socket for these (Fiat #9901181) we the same as the later headlights you have that use the H4 bulbs?  Man, those early bulbs look huge...

Okay, so I bought the little clips from Wapsira!  I never would have known exactly what they were for without your help.   Thanks for the tip.

I was just looking at the Carello headlights I have, and I see that one has defective/rusty/peeling silvered surface on the inside, so I need to find at least one new one of that type.  I guess it won't hurt to have a spare or two of them around.

Are you certain that the later Carello headlights you have fit?  Some of the ones I have seen for sale on ebay appear to have studs and other differences on the rear of them.

Putting together these headlight assemblies has sure been a project in itself.  I finally see how it all works.  These sure are an awfully complicated assembly.  So many parts compared to modern cars.  Then, the whole thing just bolts into the standard 600 headlight bucket (the one welded to the body).  There wouldn't be a gasket between the headlight sub-assembly and the body would there?

Gil

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2007, 10:37:14 AM »
Would the socket for these (Fiat #9901181) be the same as the later headlights you have that use the H4 bulbs?

  I don't think so. The later "P45t" type bulbs normally fit directly to the headlight, and have the wiring connector spades on the back of them. The headlight they fit into will have a slightly different opening on the back, and usually 2 small tabs on each side of the opening that flip over & hold the bulb unit in place (instead of the single wire arch that holds the socket in place like on your headlights).

Man, those early bulbs look huge...

Yeah, they're pretty funky looking.

Okay, so I bought the little clips from Wapsira!  I never would have known exactly what they were for without your help.  Thanks for the tip.

You're welcome. Glad I could share my findings. ;)

I was just looking at the Carello headlights I have, and I see that one has defective/rusty/peeling silvered surface on the inside, so I need to find at least one new one of that type.  I guess it won't hurt to have a spare or two of them around.

 I have a spare good reflector unit that I got recently from eBay along with my headlight bucket & rim. It's just the back half of the light (the silver mirror-like part).

Are you certain that the later Carello headlights you have fit?  Some of the ones I have seen for sale on ebay appear to have studs and other differences on the rear of them.

  I learned about the rear-studs thing early on in my 600 headlight "quest", so I avoided those. I'm going to pull the spares out of storage later today to see exactly what I've got - it's been awhile since I bought them. I need to verify the bulb mount type on the back, as well as the actual size (5" or 7").

There wouldn't be a gasket between the headlight sub-assembly and the body would there?

  Not that I've ever seen on any of the cars I've worked on &/or dismantled, and not in the parts books. Just straight metal to metal, no gasket in between.

-Jeff.

Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline viotti600

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Re: Headlights
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2007, 12:07:57 PM »
Okay, so I bought the little clips from Wapsira!  I never would have known exactly what they were for without your help.   Thanks for the tip.

  I think I said before that the clips go on the edge of the headlight bucket. But in looking over my headlight assemblies & how the pieces all fit together yesterday, it appears that the clips instead get mounted on the raised seam around the headlight opening on the car (where the fenders & front body panel meet the headlight nacelle sheetmetal). Then the outer trim ring gets snapped onto the clips, remaining separate from the actual headlight assembly itself.

  I was just looking at the Carello headlights I have, and I see that one has defective/rusty/peeling silvered surface on the inside, so I need to find at least one new one of that type.  I guess it won't hurt to have a spare or two of them around.

Gil,
  After rummaging through boxes in storage yesterday, I found that the NOS Carello lights that I thought took the modern bulb type are unfortunately not 5", but 7" instead (for USA type headlights). I'll likely keep them for use in the 850's later.

  I do have an extra pair of NOS 5" Carello's that look identical to yours. These have the more modern fluting pattern in the glass lense, not like that pair of early 600 lenses you have, right? What is the stamped Carello part number on yours? I might be persuaded to part with mine in some sort of trade... ;)

  In looking at the back of your/my 5" Carello's, it doesn't look like you can use the modern P45t type bulb with them. They might physically fit together, but I think the method (retainer) used to hold the bulb in place is different between the two. Our "early" lights use a single arched wire retainer (to hold the socket in place), while the later lights have a small hinge-tab on each side 180º apart (you can see one of the "tabs" on the headlight in the diagram of my July 27th post above).

Here's a great page that shows the 2 different 45w/40w bulb types, early BA20d vs. modern P45t:

http://store.candlepower.com/anspeubu.html

  Sorry to say, but it looks like if you want to upgrade to more modern type bulbs (halogen, tungsten, etc.), you'll have to get the other type of Carello headlight units (with the 2 tabs on back). Wattage should be 45/40w (45w high beams, 40w low beams), voltage is 12V.

Ciao,
 -Jeff.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA