Author Topic: 1000 TC-TCR cranckshaft  (Read 4625 times)

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Offline sorpasso1300

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1000 TC-TCR cranckshaft
« on: April 05, 2006, 11:46:36 PM »
Hello guys:
                    Does anyone have idea how, or where, or from whom, can I get the plans and specifications to reproduce the Abarth 1000 cranckshaft used on the 1000 TC and TCR?

Thank you.
Omar
« Last Edit: April 06, 2006, 07:01:53 PM by sorpasso1300 »

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: 1000 TC-TCR cranckshaft
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2007, 03:15:50 AM »
Hello Omar,

I guess the first question would be why you would want to do this, as the crankshaft in an Autobianchi A112 A2 - 1050 is PRECISELY the same as the original Abarth 74mm unit.  Dimensionally they are the same.  They are steel and they  survive very nicely at up to 9000 RPM.

Now the Abarth crankshafts may have been slightly lighter, but that aside I do not see why you would want to spend the money.

The cost to make a proper billet crankshaft would be in the neighborhood of $3500 USD.  Rather than being "net-shape" forged, with the grain structure following the forging, they would be cut from solid billet.  The jury is still out as to which is stronger, but I believe this to be an academic point.  I have one customer who had a custom crankshaft constructed.  It has hollow main journals and is SUPER light.  You do not want to ask the price.

So, if you have access to a 1050 crankshaft, then it is easy enough to reverse engineer this into an autocad drawing.

Hope  this helps

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com
USA


Offline sorpasso1300

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Re: 1000 TC-TCR cranckshaft
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 09:19:20 PM »
Thank you Paul. You are right.
Omar

Offline biketesting

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Re: 1000 TC-TCR cranckshaft
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2007, 05:17:42 AM »
Do you think that there is any truth to the rumor that Rich motors made a Ti crankshaft? Cam? Valves and springs? I heard from a friend that his friend's dad was "Rich Motors" and that they had a friend who worked at JPL and put these things together...a Billet Ti crankshaft? Take it for what it's worth: dudes drinking at the track trading stories. It seems like the crank would be too flexible.
What can I test for you?

Offline viotti600

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Re: 1000 TC-TCR cranckshaft
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2007, 07:37:49 AM »
Do you think that there is any truth to the rumor that Rich motors made a Ti crankshaft? Cam? Valves and springs? I heard from a friend that his friend's dad was "Rich Motors" and that they had a friend who worked at JPL and put these things together...a Billet Ti crankshaft? Take it for what it's worth: dudes drinking at the track trading stories. It seems like the crank would be too flexible.

 John Rich (the "Rich" in Rich Motors) liked to use the forged steel Abarth/Giannini/Nardi cranks (already designed/proven), or standard or "stroked" Fiat 850 cranks in their "hot rod" 600/850 engines. Cams were usually billet steel (Abarth) or reground cast iron (600/850).

 I don't think the part about JPL is quite right....if I recall correctly from what John told me long ago, the friend that worked at JPL was helping Rich Motors with development/application/use of friction-reducing coatings for the moving engine parts like cranks, pistons, cams/lifters, etc.. Fred/Don Plotkin may have helped with the "testing" during the 1968-69 racing seasons (they drove a Rich-Abarth sponsored car). In fact, I think the use of these coatings is still one of the items in Plotkin's "secret recipe" for building good quality, reliable & fast 850 engines. LOL. ;)

 John was quite proud of the quality & craftsmanship of their 74mm-stroked Fiat 850 903cc cast-iron crankshafts. I myself have 2 of those Rich Motors crankshafts - one (quite worn but original) "period" crank & one that we had done in 1998 (almost 30 years later!) by the same craftsmen on a whim "just for old time's sake". Here are some pics of that "new" crank:



 I have yet to install this crank in an engine, it's just so damn nice-looking! LOL. I would've liked to have had John around when it finally got built, but...life happens. :(


Cheers,
 -JS.
Jeff Stich
Norco, CA, USA

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: 1000 TC-TCR cranckshaft
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2007, 02:58:41 AM »
BIke Testing,

John Rich and his merry men were, I am sure, responsible for all sorts of unusual ideas when it came to Fiat Abarths.  Most people will not remember, or even know that John even had a hand at playing around with the NSU TTS.  I knew John at the time, as in the late 60s I helped a fellow by the name of Bill Allen with his NSU.  He competed regularly against Ed Dempsey, who drove an Abarth with Rich Motors sponsorship.  BTW - Bill Allen went on the win D-sedan at Daytona in 1969 against all the Abarth regulars, including Ed Dempsey.

As I said John tried many, many ideas.  For example, less than 5 blocks down the street from Rich Motors was a "fuel company" that specialized in "exotic fuels".  Would John have tried some of these over the years?   In the years that Rich Motors was building and racing Abarths titanium would have been a REAL exotic material.  Just the fact that the JPL name was used in the same sentence says it all.  Even today, with all the advances made in titanium metalurgy, the material simply does not have the required stiffness to make for a good crankshaft. 

I firmly believe that John ( and Don and Fred Plotkin who built engines and drive for Rich at some point) had worked out that the real enemy in all engines, particularly small displacement ones, was PARASITIC LOSSES.  I am sure that the merry men at Rich Motors used whatever was readily available to reduce parasitic losses.  This included the troublesome, yet effective, Dykes ring pack.  Properly installed and run, in these rings were low friction, yet sealed very well. 

I have been preaching the same story for years.  Today I use a low friction ring set with a gas-ported top groove to achieve a similar decrease in parasitic losses.  I am sure there are others that use other combinations as well.  Only in recent years have companies, like Sorevi-Bekaert, come up with viable diamond/carbon coatings that really work.  Coatings for piston skirts that utilize a three layer DLC technique really make a difference.  I recently did a motor for a client in which various forms of DLC coating were used for piston skirts, push rod ends, rocker arm tips, cam lobes and bearing surfaces, lifters, timing chain gears, connecting rods, to name just some of the components.  Even technologies such as Isotropic Micropolishing can make for a huge reduction in gearbox and drive train losses.  Can you see the difference on a dyno? In one word, YES.

Sadly, John is no longer with us.  It would have been neat to pick his brain, as  I am sure that there are things that he tried that were never documented.  I am sure that John was not beyond a little psychological warfare.  Perhaps he planted the titanium crankshaft story just to "stir the pot" a little.  Or maybe it was to distract all concerned from something else that he was playing around with.  We will never know.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 03:02:54 AM by Paul vander Heyden »

Offline harmitc

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Re: 1000 TC-TCR cranckshaft
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2007, 12:15:29 PM »
Heres the crank I made for my 1000TC, hollow crank pins with tungsten counter weights.

Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: 1000 TC-TCR cranckshaft
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2007, 12:18:24 AM »
Hello Bernard,

Very nice piece of equipment.  I remember when we first talked about the fact that you were having it made.  I seem to remember that you were doing this engine for a hill climb car?  Have you run it yet?  How about the gearbox, did you get to run it yet?

One thing that I noticed straight away, that I REALLY like, is the large radii on the main bearing surfaces.  This will make for a very strong transition.  I was speaking to one of my other clients in Switzerland, for whom I made some very special "narrow" connecting rods that are only 18mm across the bearing.  In this case the connecting rod is "guided" by the two piston pin bosses, and the reduction in weight of the large end of the connecting rod is substantial.  I managed to make a connecting rod, made from 300M material, that weighs only 298 gram.  This combined with out latest 13.5:1 piston at a weight of 218 gram, makes for a very light combination with a total weight of 515 gram.  The new pistons are a semi-slipper design and have small cross section rings and a tapered, forged piston pin.  I can even do "gas porting' on the top ring, for better sealing with low tension rings, should this be required.  The standard A112 connecting rod and piston together weigh over 700 grams, so this represents a 27%, or more, decrease in weight.  It does require some intricate machining on the piston, but it is how most high performance motors are built these days (F1 Mercedes, NASCAR etc).  These items combined with your crankshaft would make for a VERY strong, yet VERY light assembly.

I had thought of making titanium connecting rods, but the cost premium and the associated, required coating process would have made them prohibitively expensive (over $4000 per set).  Another problem these days is the availability of premium quality titanium forgings.

Hope to hear about your hillclimb exploits.

Regards,

Paul Vanderheijden
Scuderia Topolino