Author Topic: Heating problems  (Read 12658 times)

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Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2006, 02:15:13 pm »
Vincent, what engine to you have in your car? What water pump do you use? I have the A112 short water pump and that is the main reason I had to install an electric fan. I f you have the 600 or the 850 water pump that drives the fan through belt that means that you have continus air flow, even if the car is stoped. In my case I have air flow only when the car moves. If the car is stoped and the temp raises the electric fan goes on automaticly but it goes on too late and has a hard time cooling the engine. Maybe I will install a second electric fan on the other side of the rear radiator with a switch in the cabin to turn it on whenever I want to.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 03:14:11 pm by ChrisD »
Fiat 600 Abarth

Offline Vincent

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2006, 04:21:14 pm »
Hi Chris,

i have a Fiat 850 engine, 100G, engine with some PBS parts, giving about 75HP. I guess the waterpump i have is a stock Fiat 850.

Best regards, Vincent.

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2006, 08:01:23 am »
Anybody knows at what preasure works the A112 water pump and the PBS high preasure water pump?
Thanks
Fiat 600 Abarth

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2007, 04:26:54 pm »
Witch PBS water pump is the right for the A112 engine? I soaw at the PBS website that there are 4 or 5 water pumps. The one that mention A112 block has a price of 350euro. Is this the right one?
Fiat 600 Abarth

Offline biketesting

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2007, 04:27:37 am »
I had a 100hp motor and never had any overheating problems. Once I put "the" front radiator on.

I made a front radiator from a Chevy 350 (some truck I think) that had three cores deep and was exactly the right width to fit in the Abarth fairing. I chopped it down and reinstalled the core into the bottom tank. I had an over flow in the front off of the radiator. No rear radiator at all. 1 very small fan on the front with a temperature switch in the radiator tank. The water pump I used was an A112 pump that I converted to work with the 903 block. My motor had the PBS gear driven cam in it and PBS head with dcoe's.

I took out the termostat at first thinking the car would not need it but it did, even during races the motor would only get to 180F without the thermostat.

I used to run with the rear radiator but it never really worked right and the car always overheated. I even had one of Abarth's special long rear radiators but during races the motor would always get to 225-230F. I tried every combination. Stock water pump/ fan, special abarth water pump, with electric fan. Fan blowing in and out. PBS water pump. Fan in and out. I put an oil cooler in. I put a fan on the oil cooler. Nothing worked, until i installed the front radiator with three cores. Of course I had no heater but this was a race car.

I did freeze my butt off one time going up to a race in the mountains at night but it was worth it. When you have a race car and it's always on the track, you have no idea what it might be like in a canyon. I do now....hehe.
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Offline Pantdino

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2007, 06:48:08 am »
I'm not sure what you mean by:

"I chopped it down and reinstalled the core into the bottom tank."

Did you install the small fan behind the radiator, I assume?  Where did you get the small fan?  I will probably have to put one on my car too, as it has no rear radiator or fan. 

Your experience confirms that the water pump can't push the water through two radiators-- you can only have one.

thanks

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2007, 09:52:45 am »
My engine is almost stock. I belive that having 2 radiators is too much for the A112 water pump. I thought of removing the rear and leaving only the front one will alow better water circulation. Since I have the A112 head and not a PBS one, I thought I could install the heater of the A112 in the place the Stock 600 rear radiator is with a small fan to heat the cabin.
Fiat 600 Abarth

Offline zippyfiat

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2007, 05:04:19 pm »
I used to have a 600 Abarth replica with an 843cc engine.  I had the stock 600 rad. with the pump-mounted fan removed, plus a front rad. installed.  I had the front rad. made up at a shop.  I never had any overheating problems, except when sat at a stoplight too long in the summer, or I was at an autocross waiting in line for my turn.  I was using the stock 843cc water pump.

I think part of the key is to make sure that the water piping up to the front rad. isn't too small.  It can't be too large either.  I used 25mm electrical conduit for the piping.

Don't forget that Abarth used a supplemental radiator under the car, and the same one up front too.  You should also make sure that your old stock rad. is clean inside and not causing restriction.

I am now working on an 850TC replica that will have the small front Abarth rad., and the larger (taller) rear rad. and the pump will be a PBS "shorty" one.  I'm going to mount an electric fan on the rear rad. (with t'stat).  I'm building a 1050cc motor on a 903cc block, and I am hoping that I will not have cooling issues.

Gil


Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2007, 07:43:59 am »
My car is a road car for evry day use. I get stuck in traffic and stoplights all the time. With the standard 767cc engine I didn't had overheating problems but I also didn't had the power I wanted. Now that it is winter the engine temp is abot 75-80 (unless I stop in traffic). During summer it was 90-95 and the electric fan was working all the time. You thik having removed the engine floor panel cause any problem? I have removed the radiator door and placed one facing forward the car.
Fiat 600 Abarth

Offline biketesting

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2007, 06:06:30 pm »
The core in a radiator is made of small tubes, the more tubes you have the better the radiator will flow. If the radiator is too small it will act as an obstruction to the system. If the radiator is too big what happens? The water pump will provide the same flow rate no matter what, unless the water is restricted. What are obstructions? Thermostats are intentionally provided to obstruct flow and this kicks in the by-pass circuit in the system. When the engine has not got this back pressure on the pump the system is allowed to flow without obstruction and as always the pump just pumps. I think there can be issues with RPM and pump flow rate but none of you are talking about 10,000 RPM motors. I think the A112 pump is excellent for these motors and it costs 17$. What is not to love? The size and number of radiators it seems to me is a simple matter. Your 600/750 cars were made for 28/32 Hp.if you triple that number you are going to need 3x the suface area on your radiator. Measure your 600 radiator and see that it has not much area. See also that there is not enough space in the back of the car to support the 3x radiator and that if you were to add 3x radiator you will find the weight will make the car even more rear heavy. Also the air flow at the backof a car is obstructed and "dirty" air and doesn't provide a clean supply of non turbulent cool air.

Most of you ----- 70Hp = 2x radiator area.
Some of you ---100Hp = 3x radiator area.

Abarth realized this and has lead the way with all sorts of nice solutions, and at every stage of tune.
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Offline zippyfiat

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2007, 06:57:04 pm »
Wouldn't the radiators mounted on the front of the car be a lot more effective because they get the full force of the air onto the car?  In addition, the rear mounted radiator is affected somewhat by heat in the engine compartment?  Maybe because of this, you don't quite need to double the radiator area if you are doubling the HP?

I have never seen an Abarth A112 with the 1050cc engine.  What is the radiator setup like in those cars?  What do they do when the HP is increased in them?

Gil

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2007, 09:26:09 am »
The 1000TC had only front radiator witch in size was about the same with the rear radiator. The oil cooler was in front to, so this must be better. And don;t forger all that pipes uder the car that can work as a cooler because of their length.

The A112 Abarth has the same radiator with the A112 903cc. Only diference is the oil cooler. I have many friends with A112 Abarths and none of them had any problem with the cooling. One of them had to remove the oil cooler because it was leaking. Even then he didn't had a problem.
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Offline Paul vander Heyden

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2007, 11:17:01 pm »
I have followed this thread with some interest, as it was always said that Fiat motors overheated easily.  The answer is yes and no.

WIth ANY cooling system you have to understand where you are starting from.  This means the following:

A.  Radiator (rear) that is sized for the job, clean on the inside and clean on the outside.
B.  Hoses in good condition capable of holding 24 lbs of pressure.
C.  High pressure radiator cap (15-24 lbs)
D.  Thermostat that opens at the proper temperature
E.  Coolant level
F.  Proper working water pump
G.  Proper working fan
H.  Properly tensioned belt.

Now lets look at each of these items.

A .  Radiator - The standard radiator was for a 32 HP motor.  A112 stock motors make 70 HP.  So the radiator must be able to dissipate a minimum of double the heat.  This means the standard radiator should have at least a core with one more row and it should be lengthened as much as the chassis will allow.  Make sure that the top tank of the radiator is at least equal/above the thermostat housing, as the top tank should be the highest item in the cooling system.

B.  Hoses -  If the hoses are more than 4-5 years old replace them.

C.  Radiator cap - A 15 PSI cap will raise the boiling point of pure water from 212 degrees F (100 C) to 249 degrees F (121 C).   The same cap on a system with 50% ethelyne glycol/water will raise the temperature from 225 degrees F (107 C) to 263 degrees F (127 C).  Running a 20 lb cap will raise the boiling temperature even further.  If really high boiling points are required, then one would go for a 'waterless' cooling system.  These liquids are capable of withstanding temperatures in excess of 400 degrees F (204 C) at 15 PSI pressure.  While we are discussing boiling temperature we might as well talk about what happens inside a motor with cooling fluid and loss of pressure.  When this happens steam is generated.  First, steam is an insulator to the transfer of heat.  So, wherever the steam is present the metal will become superheated.  If this is an area in the head, then detonation can easily and quickly occur.  Further, lower system pressures will also allow the pressure at the waterpump inlet to drop even further, thus creating steam at lower temperatures still.  BTW - The radiator cap is the single most neglected item in the cooling system.  If you do not know how old it is, or what pressure it is, get a new one and mark if with the installation date.

D. Thermostat - ALL engines MUST use a thermostat or, in their place, some type of restrictor plate.  Why?  Well there are several reasons.  First, the thermostat will allow the engine to come up to operating temperature faster, reducing wear.  Second, the thermostat (or restrictor plate) will form a partial barrier to water flow, allowing the waterpump to build up pressure behind the thermostat to something like 30 PSI.  This means that the boiling temperature of the fluid in the block will be even higher than in the radiator, approaching something like 300 degrees F (149 C) with a 50/50 water/glycol mixture.  This will make steam pockets less likely to occur.  Third, the reduction of speed of the water through the system by the thermostat will allow more time for the fluid to give off its heat while traveling through the radiator.

If  you run a second radiator, it should be run in series to the rear radiator.  So the water would flow form the pump into the block, through the block and head to the thermostat, to the top tank of the rear radiator, through the radiator and then from the bottom tank of the rear radiator to one side of the front radiator, and from the other side of the front radiator to the input to the pump on the block.  The front radiator should, as a minimum, have a bleed valve on the top of the radiator to bleed off any trapped air.  A better solution would be to have a small copper line going from the top of the front radiator to the top tank of the rear radiator.  With this the system can bleed itself and purge itself of any potential steam pockets.  There has been a lot debate about the proper diameter of the pipes leading to/from the front radiator.  In my own car I have used AN-12 stainless lines for all of the flexible water connections.  The internal diameter of AN lines/fittings is easy to calculate.  AN uses a ratio of 16 per inch.  So a AN-12 is 12/16 or 3/4 inch  internal diameter or 19mm.  Even accounting for some frictional loss in the pipes, I calculated that a 1 inch (25mm) tube would be more than large enough.  In reality, the actual hole diameter in an open thermostat is probably less than 3/4 inch or 19mm.  For a blanking plate this would be the equivalent of four 3/8 inch (10mm) holes.

E. - Coolant level - Their should always be a small amount of air in the top tank of the rear radiator to allow for expansion.  Remember that air can compress and fluid cannot.  If you are driving on the street the best coolant/water mixture is between 40-50% coolant, the rest clean water.  NO MORE coolant than this.  The most efficient conductor of heat is pure water, but it boils easily.  The worst conductor of heat is pure alcohol, but it does not boil easily.  So a reasonable combination  of the two is a good compromise.

F.  Water pump - Make sure that the water pump is working properly.  Most water pumps 'cavitate' above 6000 RPM.  So, if you are running the motor to 8500 RPM, you must make sure that the pump is not over driven.  When cavitation occurs, the impeller in the pump is turning faster than the water is capable of moving.  This causes additional friction and air bubbles are produced, which are then pumped into the block.  Across the inlet to the water pump the pressure is lower than the system pressure, add to this the additional heat generating friction of cavitation and the end result is steam.   Not a good idea.  Of course, it goes without saying that the pump should not leak.  Almost any good mechanical  or electronic pump can handle two radiators in series. 

G. Fan Assembly - Regardless of whether the fan is electrical or mechanical, the shroud around the fan MUST be in good condition if you expect to pull/push air through the radiator core.  Without a fan shroud the fan's effectiveness is reduced by 50%.  Air will go around the radiator, rather than through it.

H.  Belt - The belt should be in good condition and sufficiently tight enough to not slip.  Any further tightening will only decrease the life of the waterpump and the belt.

I hope this is of some help to those of you who are having cooling problems.

Paul Vanderheijden
www.scuderiatopolino.com
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 12:19:19 am by Paul vander Heyden »

Offline ChrisD

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2007, 10:14:51 am »
Well seems that I found a good solution for my cooling system. I followed Pauls instructions about connecting the rear and front radiator, but I didn't used an electric fan in the rear radiator OR reverced the air flow.
I managed to find a water pump that originates from Zastava 900Ak van. This van looks just like the 900T but uses Yugo 45 903cc engine. That engine has the same water pump mounting like the A112 or 127(with 3 holes to bolt the pump) but the pump looks like the stock 600 pump. That means tthat it has a mechanical fan that blows the radiator all the time. That way you keep the air flow stok, allowing the pump to take the hot air out of the engine compartment and having the stock cabin heating system in place. the engine floor panel is in place too and there is no need to have the rear bonnet open now...unless you want to show off or use it like a spoiler.

By using copper tubes to connect the rear and front radiator and a thermostat in the head the max water temp I had so far was 72 degrees and that was when the car was stoped in a traffic light, or traffic or after pushing the engine real hard. In normal drive the temp was about 65 degree. I also installed fans in the front radiator that start to work automaticly through a valve, but they never strted so far. Seems that the stock air flow with mechanic fan in the rear does all the work.

My question now is this: 70 degrees is an OK temp for the engine to work good or do I need to replace the thermostat with another one to allow the engine to work at what it is supposed to be normal 90degrees??? Something bad can happen to it if I leave it at 70???
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 10:47:05 am by ChrisD »
Fiat 600 Abarth

Offline biketesting

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Re: Heating problems
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2007, 12:19:33 am »
It is running too cold. I like to keep my cars closer to 90, they seem to run better.
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